Prime Foreman vs Prime Frazier

[djcomplex]

Then why did Tyson duck Foreman? D'amato even told him he couldn't beat Foreman.

no he never stop chatting ****..the talk of a tyson vs forman fight was between 88-90 D'amato passed away b4 tyson beat berbick...so u can piss off with u bs boxing talk go read wiki or something...

posters like u make me sick......

[djcomplex]

ATG? That's just a label for oldies!

A fighter either hits hard or he doesn't.

Only 1 of those fighters beat Wlad by way of hard punching (Sanders).

The gas related stoppage to Puritty (and Brewster too which wasn't even really legit anyway) was synonymous to Foremans own gas related stoppage to Ali! But atleast Wlad's opponents COULD punch, unlike Ali!

So let's look at Sanders.

He is slightly longer than Foreman
Heavier than Foreman
Hits very hard. Hard enough to spark the big fellas out.
He is much more skilled than George.
And is several leagues faster than George.

So much for your ATG theory.

I have reviewed all the relevant fights of Foreman and Frazier over the years.

Foreman displayed no appreciable skills, was an arm and push puncher. He was powerful (most powerful of all time is simply fog talk). Nearly all of his opponents were nothing but helpless victims, undersized, overmatched CW's. All I see is a big bully picking on smaller weaker boxers.

Frazier is terrible. The times he met what was THEN called B grade opposition, like Bonavena for example, he was up against it. If not for Ali, he would not be famous at all!

Labelling Frazier a "puncher" is over the top laughable. 45% KO ratio against 200+ opposition, which pretty much all of those were only JUST over 200lbs, not like the 235lb average opponents of WK.

Joe Frazier was a HW featherfist!

In my opinion, he could not punch through the surface tension of water!

totally agree!!!!

IN MY OPINION he did not even beat Ali in the ''fight of the century'' if you watch the fight from start to end Ali land x2 x3 more punches then joe...yes joe scored the knock down but in my eyes ali outlanded and out pointed him...but to be honets ali would of had to knock joe out to get the win...alot of politics involved around the time of the first fight.....

basically chisora is what Frazer would of been today if he was around a fringe contender at best...hell of heart and grit tho....

[Elroy1]

It is absolutely a fact that Mike Tyson was afraid to fight 41-year-old George Foreman--the same Foreman who Evander Holyfield would fight and beat in April of 1991. I have not a doubt that had Foreman and Tyson fought anytime between 1990 and 1997 that Foreman would have knocked Tyson out inside of three rounds. Tyson just has nothing to beat Foreman with; his edge in hand speed would have been a non-factor. He can't beat him by backing away, and he would have gotten his head handed to him if he brought the fight to Foreman. In addition, Foreman was bigger, stronger, tougher and hit harder. Not to mention the fact that Foreman had a better chin and no fear or doubt, unlike Tyson, who was full of fear and self-doubt.. Sorry if you can't handle it.

Foreman's only "weapon" against Tyson of any relevance, was his chin. His ability to probably go the 12 rounds with Tyson without getting knocked out like the younger smaller boxers he was fighting. His power would have been useless, because Foreman would barely have landed a punch on Mike!

Foreman did not hit harder than Mike! Get out of here! Stronger? Yea that may be true.

TYou know the mindset of Tyson do you? Pulling the "mental midget" card now are we?

Mike Tyson was, even in the 90's, one of the most feared boxers of the generation. Tyson fought most of the BEST boxers, you know, the same sort as Lennox. He did not bother with B grade boxers like Moorer, Ruiz, Byrd or FOREMAN! Whom were of no particular CHALLENGE for him.

Tyson was an animal, he chewed friggin ears off, do you really think for a second, that Mike was really going to be scared, of the Grill salesman!!!

How do you explain Foreman getting solidly beaten by every decent opponent he faced in the 90's? Even Moorer was giving him a clinic!

Foreman's comeback has been described as "Moonlighting". He was never a serious factor.

[joseph5620]

or those of you that have watched it, you may have noticed that the ref does a very bad job in this as he allows Foreman to repeatedly get away with just shoving Joe away and pushing him to the side in order to set up his clubbing shots. Frazier actually has a fair degree of success in getting to Foreman early on and lands some decent left hooks and jabs. Foreman has trouble controlling range and keeping Frazier off him. With a different ref I think it would be interesting to see how Foreman wold have coped if he hadnt been allowed manhandle Frazier and repeadly shove him back with full on pushes. The ref should have addressed this early.

This brings me to my other point. It may seem bizzare to criticize Foreman in a fight where he blasted out such a high profile opponent - but Ive always been bothered by his tactics in this. Very little use of the jab, no real success at keeping Frazier at bay and rather untidy, wild punches. Frazier did most of his best work in close, so I would have expected Foreman to box and use his jab to set up his power shots. But crucially he seemed unable to do this and was allowed to get away with resorting to pushes and shoves followed by wild swings that left him prime to be caught square from a left hook - Frazier's marquee punch.

As it happened, Foreman's power and roughhousing was too much for Frazier but I do think it would have been interesting to see what would have happened with a different ref. As Ali showed, Foreman could be prone to punching himself out with his big swings and the drawback of having power is that you often don't get into later rounds. Frazier for me was reasonably successful at getting to Foreman early on made possible by Foreman neglecting the jab. Had it gone on for longer with a ref that wouldn't let Foreman away with his pushing I think it would have been interesting. Such was Foreman's power and Frazier's added fat, undertraining, and underestimating, that the result may well have been the same once he landed a big one but I do think the ref and his tactics made it far easier than it should/could have been.
That being said, Prime vs Prime it's a very different story. Win or lose, Frazier will do much better than he did in '73.
For me this is an over/under fight. Foreman would have to get Frazier early or Frazier would get him later. I remember the 1973-77 Foreman as a fighter who was less effective with each passing round. Some say he had bad stamina, some say it was his pacing. In this match up, the first 3 rounds are Foreman's, the next two are dangerous for Frazier, but Frazier should be fighting more evenly, after that the fight should be Frazier's. If the fight went into the 6th I don't think Foreman would make it to 15 or even 12.

The best Frazier was a bobbing weaving fighter who should be hard to hit by a ponderous swinger like Foreman. In addition, if Frazier could work Foreman's body in rounds 4 and 5, it should diminish Foreman's remaining power. I would pick Frazier but I would be nervous until the 6 or 7th round. Another thing that should be added, contrary to popular belief, Frazier could change his style.Frazier was known for his come forward style, but he didn't always just walk right into his opponents power range and try to beat them down. He countered, used his feet better and punched off the angles when pressured himself. He did this against Chuvalo, Quarry, Ellis and Bonavena in their rematch. Against Foreman, Joe thought that he could just out-smart and out-bully the bully and instead he got bullied around himself.
Chuvalo pressured Frazier and backed him up a couple of times in the fight. What did Joe do? He backed up, jabbed, countered and used his right hand more, and in better condition, showed the head movement against Chuvalo that he didn't against Foreman. Plus the fact that Chuvalo wasn't allowed to turn the match into a wrestling contest like Mercante allowed Foreman to do against Frazier. Now we all no there's a distinct difference in punching power between Chuvalo and Foreman, but not a whole lot of difference strength wise.

Frazier would never beat Foreman and there's no case for it at all.

[Twako]

foreman would beat frazier all the time. but if they had fought today, foreman would probably had been DQ'd or deducted a lot of pts for pushing and shoving.

[abdelfadeel]

no he never stop chatting ****..the talk of a tyson vs forman fight was between 88-90 D'amato passed away b4 tyson beat berbick...so u can piss off with u bs boxing talk go read wiki or something...

posters like u make me sick......

Then why did Tyson never respond to Foreman calling him out?

[Elroy1]

Sanders wasn't in Foreman's time zone. Sorry if you can't take it. Foreman could handle people his own size like Chuvalo. Foreman didn't knock out anyone relavent? You think Sanders would ko Frazier? Have you ever watched boxing? Foreman knocked out much better people than Sanders. Even if you can't accept it, it's the truth. I don't think you know about boxing. you only believe what you wanna believe.

Listen to me, Nothing can be more of a sure thing than Corrie Sanders knocking out Joe Frazier in the first minute, of the first round under any circumstances. Frazier is terrible, slow, weak, chinny, unskilled.

Sanders would have been among the biggest opponents he ever faced, the fastest, the most aggressive, among the most powerful, rangie, southpaw.

If you have really seen enough of Sanders and Frazier to make a valid comparison then you have been watching with your rose coloured glasses on. Cause nobody can objectively make that call!

Foreman could not handle guys his own size like Lyle.

George Chuvalo!!!

Your basing Foreman's ability to handle guys his own size on beating an inflated 6'0" 58-19 bum like Chuvalo? Whom despite multiple shots Foreman could not knock down.

Chuvalo was nothing but a chin on legs.

[abdelfadeel]

Foreman's only "weapon" against Tyson of any relevance, was his chin. His ability to probably go the 12 rounds with Tyson without getting knocked out like the younger smaller boxers he was fighting. His power would have been useless, because Foreman would barely have landed a punch on Mike!

Foreman did not hit harder than Mike! Get out of here! Stronger? Yea that may be true.

TYou know the mindset of Tyson do you? Pulling the "mental midget" card now are we?

Mike Tyson was, even in the 90's, one of the most feared boxers of the generation. Tyson fought most of the BEST boxers, you know, the same sort as Lennox. He did not bother with B grade boxers like Moorer, Ruiz, Byrd or FOREMAN! Whom were of no particular CHALLENGE for him.

Tyson was an animal, he chewed friggin ears off, do you really think for a second, that Mike was really going to be scared, of the Grill salesman!!!

How do you explain Foreman getting solidly beaten by every decent opponent he faced in the 90's? Even Moorer was giving him a clinic!

Foreman's comeback has been described as "Moonlighting". He was never a serious factor.

First of all, no way in hell does Tyson hit the hardest. Liston, Cooney, and Marciano (to name a few) could all hit harder than Tyson. And then, of course, you have George Foreman. I've actually heard people say Tyson hit harder than George. First of all, George lifted Joe Frazier off of his feet with and uppercut. And that was an uppercut with no body or ground behind it. That was Foreman just throwing his arm upwards. That's ****ing power. Tyson always used his full body when throwing an uppercut, but I never saw him knock anyone off of their feet! Joe Frazier, Joe Louis, and Jack Dempsey hit just as hard as Tyson. Frazier hit Chuvalo with a left hook that TORE HIS ****ING EYE OUT OF IT'S SOCKET. Tyson's left hook can't compare to the feroctiy and fire of Joe's left hook. Louis and Dempsey's handspeed is better than Tyson, with just as much power. Louis's uppercuts were much more brutal than Tyson's.

[abdelfadeel]

Foreman's only "weapon" against Tyson of any relevance, was his chin. His ability to probably go the 12 rounds with Tyson without getting knocked out like the younger smaller boxers he was fighting. His power would have been useless, because Foreman would barely have landed a punch on Mike!

Foreman did not hit harder than Mike! Get out of here! Stronger? Yea that may be true.

TYou know the mindset of Tyson do you? Pulling the "mental midget" card now are we?

Mike Tyson was, even in the 90's, one of the most feared boxers of the generation. Tyson fought most of the BEST boxers, you know, the same sort as Lennox. He did not bother with B grade boxers like Moorer, Ruiz, Byrd or FOREMAN! Whom were of no particular CHALLENGE for him.

Tyson was an animal, he chewed friggin ears off, do you really think for a second, that Mike was really going to be scared, of the Grill salesman!!!

How do you explain Foreman getting solidly beaten by every decent opponent he faced in the 90's? Even Moorer was giving him a clinic!

Foreman's comeback has been described as "Moonlighting". He was never a serious factor.

This is revisionist, dishonest bull**** of the worse kind.
More reprehensible than that, it is outright deliberate lying to somehow justify the fact that for two years Tyson defended against a couple of unranked stiffs and denied title opportunites to his deserving challlengers.
It is outright lying.

[djcomplex]

Then why did Tyson never respond to Foreman calling him out?

same reason why wlad wont repond to briggs