Buy or Sell: Drawing the Color Line

[travestyny]

Do you buy or sell the following John L. Sullivan quotation?

If ever you hear of a man drawing the color line, you can bet your life there is some Negro he is mighty afraid of.

[Marchegiano]

I'm not questioning you, but, I would like to voice how unbelievable that quote is. Of the racists John was probably the worst, philosophically speaking.

That said, I've never known a fighter to draw the color line without there being a logical someone he should be a bit weary of fighting.

More often than not it seems like a convenient excuse.

[travestyny]

I'm not questioning you, but, I would like to voice how unbelievable that quote is. Of the racists John was probably the worst, philosophically speaking.

That said, I've never known a fighter to draw the color line without there being a logical someone he should be a bit weary of fighting.

More often than not it seems like a convenient excuse.

I thought the same thing when I saw it. I thought...John L. of all people???


It makes me wonder what to think of Gene Tunney. He's a fighter that made it clear that he had drawn the color line (sans Wills) and would draw the color line, including on Wills, if he won the title. The only reasoning I can think that he was willing to face Wills is that he knew if he won that he could skip the line to the title. Turns out he didn't even need to fight him to skip the line. Just needed the champ to skip Wills, I suppose.

[Marchegiano]

I thought the same thing when I saw it. I thought...John L. of all people???


It makes me wonder what to think of Gene Tunney. He's a fighter that made it clear that he had drawn the color line (sans Wills) and would draw the color line, including on Wills, if he won the title. The only reasoning I can think that he was willing to face Wills is that he knew if he won that he could skip the line to the title. Turns out he didn't even need to fight him to skip the line. Just needed the champ to skip Wills, I suppose.

tbf to Johnny, I forgot about Tunney's ****.

Was Tunney ever actually even LHW champion?

It's weird to me, a guy with a win over a MW and HW is a great or greatest LHW of all time..especially given he might be the worst of the colorline guys.

Maybe I'm just not up enough on my 20s, but, no Norfolk, a draw with Loughran, Mctigue? nah. Stribling? Nope. Battling L? Like ten years too late. Siki? Nah. Georges? Sure, right after Gibbons and Siki embarrassed him. Berlenbach? Nope. Renault? Kinda, stopped because the ref was sure it was fixed - NC.

Dude's resume is like Delaney, Dempsey, and Grebb. Only one of those guys is a LHW.

With like say Jeffries, I don't totally forgive the colorline bull**** but since he fought and beat great black men prior to being champion I don't hold him so harshly as I do the John Ls and Tunneys.

Tunney was a guy who hardly fought anyone, scared of black men beating him, and somehow because he beat Grebb, who got his ass kicked by Norfolk anyway, and Dempsey, who ducked Norfolk blatantly, greatest LHW? Pretty sure Charles and Spinks rolls and smokes this fool like as if their name was Frazier.

[travestyny]

tbf to Johnny, I forgot about Tunney's ****.

Was Tunney ever actually even LHW champion?

It's weird to me, a guy with a win over a MW and HW is a great or greatest LHW of all time..especially given he might be the worst of the colorline guys.

Maybe I'm just not up enough on my 20s, but, no Norfolk, a draw with Loughran, Mctigue? nah. Stribling? Nope. Battling L? Like ten years too late. Siki? Nah. Georges? Sure, right after Gibbons and Siki embarrassed him. Berlenbach? Nope. Renault? Kinda, stopped because the ref was sure it was fixed - NC.

Dude's resume is like Delaney, Dempsey, and Grebb. Only one of those guys is a LHW.

With like say Jeffries, I don't totally forgive the colorline bull**** but since he fought and beat great black men prior to being champion I don't hold him so harshly as I do the John Ls and Tunneys.

Tunney was a guy who hardly fought anyone, scared of black men beating him, and somehow because he beat Grebb, who got his ass kicked by Norfolk anyway, and Dempsey, who ducked Norfolk blatantly, greatest LHW? Pretty sure Charles and Spinks rolls and smokes this fool like as if their name was Frazier.

Well goddamn. lol. I certainly can't challenge anything you've said.

Good stuff man. Your posts teach me a lot about these old skool fighters. Much much respect!

[Marchegiano]

Well goddamn. lol. I certainly can't challenge anything you've said.

Good stuff man. Your posts teach me a lot about these old skool fighters. Much much respect!

I'm sure Ghost, Queen, or Rusty will

[billeau2]

Its confusing

I am perpetually confused by the snippets we get regarding the color line. In a more general sense of race relations it does not make much sense. Education, fairness... it seems these usual ******* sentiments are thrown to the proverbial wolves.

So in general the Irish and many Blacks lived together and coexisted together in relative harmony in Urban environments like the Five Points Hood in NYC. it is said that the "Jig" was a combination of African and Celtic dance moves... The Irish and Blacks had a similar sentiment regarding the Civil War... Both faced relatively similar types of discrimination at least primea facea for the time.

And we have London who wrote socialist tomes, decried the treatment of the working man... even spoke of animal rights... who then said such ghastly racist things about Johnson... What was going on? Is this really cultural blindness?

When we talk of the fighters I do think we have to be careful about making assumptions. For example, Tunney was a great fighter, whatever his motivations, it is hard to imagine him fearing another fighter. We do know that some individuals have said Tunney was a bit of a "prig," a snob of sorts... We also know London had an inferiority complex, given his semi-autobiography (Martin Eden). Both men were social climbers, and had to accept that high society ala Gatsby Ole Chap, was still reified in America.

Dempsey did not appear to have the same motivation to climb the social ladder. Dempsey was always very up front about how he came up. He was unpretentious enough that in his restaurant he would greet people, vis a vis he was accessible.

Sullivan to me is the wild card... Here is the quinessential Irish stereotype. A man who longed for the comfort of a pub, and who would speak freely. So did he have a deep abiding point of view regarding race relations? Or did he speak of these relations casually and with capriciousness?

Sullivan at times seems to indicate that his rules are simple: you settle it out back, come back into the proverbial pub and become fast friends... At other times he does maintain a color line when in conversation... so who knows lol.

Part of the problem was back then people believed in substantial differences between the races. There was no knowledge of genetics, or physical characteristics versus the isolation and development of a group for many generations. Racial chauvanism was one product of this understanding. Trying to put your race in the running so to speak...

[travestyny]

I am perpetually confused by the snippets we get regarding the color line. In a more general sense of race relations it does not make much sense. Education, fairness... it seems these usual ******* sentiments are thrown to the proverbial wolves.

So in general the Irish and many Blacks lived together and coexisted together in relative harmony in Urban environments like the Five Points Hood in NYC. it is said that the "Jig" was a combination of African and Celtic dance moves... The Irish and Blacks had a similar sentiment regarding the Civil War... Both faced relatively similar types of discrimination at least primea facea for the time.

And we have London who wrote socialist tomes, decried the treatment of the working man... even spoke of animal rights... who then said such ghastly racist things about Johnson... What was going on? Is this really cultural blindness?

When we talk of the fighters I do think we have to be careful about making assumptions. For example, Tunney was a great fighter, whatever his motivations, it is hard to imagine him fearing another fighter. We do know that some individuals have said Tunney was a bit of a "prig," a snob of sorts... We also know London had an inferiority complex, given his semi-autobiography (Martin Eden). Both men were social climbers, and had to accept that high society ala Gatsby Ole Chap, was still reified in America.

Dempsey did not appear to have the same motivation to climb the social ladder. Dempsey was always very up front about how he came up. He was unpretentious enough that in his restaurant he would greet people, vis a vis he was accessible.

Sullivan to me is the wild card... Here is the quinessential Irish stereotype. A man who longed for the comfort of a pub, and who would speak freely. So did he have a deep abiding point of view regarding race relations? Or did he speak of these relations casually and with capriciousness?

Sullivan at times seems to indicate that his rules are simple: you settle it out back, come back into the proverbial pub and become fast friends... At other times he does maintain a color line when in conversation... so who knows lol.

Part of the problem was back then people believed in substantial differences between the races. There was no knowledge of genetics, or physical characteristics versus the isolation and development of a group for many generations. Racial chauvanism was one product of this understanding. Trying to put your race in the running so to speak...

Good post, Bill.

When you mentioned the relationship between Blacks and the Irish, I immediately thought of the riots in New York City during the civil war. When the Emancipation Proclamation was issued, and the new draft order given, many of the Irish rioted, targeting blacks. A Black orphanage was even burned to the ground. The Irish didn't want to go to war to free the Blacks because they felt Blacks would replace them as workers. They also were resentful that Blacks weren't drafted themselves at the time because they weren't considered citizens.

I also think it may be a bit more complicated than John L. put it. I've never subscribed to the notion that fighters are afraid of other fighters. But I think there is a difference between being afraid of a fighter and being afraid to lose to a fighter. Unfortunately, losing to a fighter of a different race meant a little extra to lots of people at this time.

[Willie Pep 229]

Do you buy or sell the following John L. Sullivan quotation?

Maybe it was just his way of making a colorful but honest appraisal of the Black talent that was being denied opportunity. It doesn't mean that the color line wasn't there, wasn't real.

Anytime anyone says what is going on inside another man's head it is always conjecture.

Sullivan spent quite a few years writing sport for the Yellow Press and his style was no less sensationalized then any of his contemporaries. I wonder when he made that quote, when he was fighting, or later on when he made his living as a critic of the game?

[travestyny]

Maybe it was just his way of making a colorful but honest appraisal of the Black talent that was being denied opportunity. It doesn't mean that the color line wasn't there, wasn't real.

Anytime anyone says what is going on inside another man's head it is always conjecture.

Sullivan spent quite a few years writing sport for the Yellow Press and his style was no less sensationalized then any of his contemporaries. I wonder when he made that quote, when he was fighting, or later on when he made his living as a critic of the game?

Instead of conjecture, I actually thought that it could be him projecting.

I'm sure I ran into the quotation a time or two before, but I ran into it again recently in the book on Langford. My guess is that it was made after he was done fighting but I haven't verified that.