Charles "Sonny" Liston vs. Rocky Marciano

[Brassangel]

Hehe...balls.

[RockyMarcianofan00]

Marciano didn't exactly have great defensive skills, he wadded in from a low crouch with relatively little headmovement and i believe Sonny Liston could take advantage of this. Rocky didn't have the same handspeed, accuracy, and explosivenesss of Joe Frazier that could nullify Sonnys offense. The odds are stacked against Marciano here, but i don't like voting against him... Rocky has true Ko power and a big pair of balls to match.

Marciano had a great inside defense the only place that his defense was flawed was outside fighting but even then he could dodge big shots, The punch that got to him most would be a quick jab but he was usaually able to dodge big shots. The two punches that knocked him down (or atleast Walcott's knockdown) was a a quick tight hook that was thrown towards the inside. Joe Frazier was probably better handspeed and with handspeed came explosiveness, but Rocky was more or less pretty accurate throwing punches. If by explosiveness you mean quick to throw punches then yes Joe has the leg up but if you mean explosivness as in power then Rocky Marciano has the leg up.

Rocky was always moving in his crotch, maybe not as much as Joe Frazier but had a dempsey role type defense in his crotch.

[Abe Attell]

IMHO Rocky would stop Liston; and here's why...

Rocky throughout his career showed heart, will, and determination to win despite whatever obsticle was in front of him. Liston, though past his best, showed the classic bully mentality when challenged...by Cassius Clay. Once it was evident that Clay was on his way to victory, beating Liston regularly to the punch and really beating him up, Liston quit on his stool, surrendering his World Heavyweight Championship....the same prize he had fought so hard to achieve before Patterson finally went against Cus' advice and gave Sonny a shot....rather than be knocked out. He quit.

Boxing is 90% mental and Rocky's will was stronger than Liston's....plus, Rocky was the type of fighter who was a truth machine, as I like to call them; he'd test your very resolve and keep coming and keep coming until you beat him dead.

Going by the psychological make-up Liston displayed against Clay in fight no 1....and don't give me that "fix" ****.....there is no way he would ever beat Marciano.

Sonny Liston didn't quit when he had his jaw broken and fought till the rest of the fight in such a condition...{can't remember which fight it was}.

that said, I think he was seriously fustrated at under-estimating Ali... how good Ali truly was...with his incredible foot speed, good chin, and speed of hand...for Liston not being able to make up the room to get his shots in, it was probably a mental break-down like Duran vs Leonard II; I am not sure about the shoulder injury, but I could see it being true since a big guy like Liston, who throws hard, would be throwing hard punches at air, not landing on something solid like Ali's body, could cause you to throw out your shoulder.

[butterfly1964]

Sonny Liston didn't quit when he had his jaw broken and fought till the rest of the fight in such a condition...{can't remember which fight it was}.

that said, I think he was seriously fustrated at under-estimating Ali... how good Ali truly was...with his incredible foot speed, good chin, and speed of hand...for Liston not being able to make up the room to get his shots in, it was probably a mental break-down like Duran vs Leonard II; I am not sure about the shoulder injury, but I could see it being true since a big guy like Liston, who throws hard, would be throwing hard punches at air, not landing on something solid like Ali's body, could cause you to throw out your shoulder.

Nice post.

[RockyMarcianofan00]

Sonny Liston didn't quit when he had his jaw broken and fought till the rest of the fight in such a condition...{can't remember which fight it was}.

that said, I think he was seriously fustrated at under-estimating Ali... how good Ali truly was...with his incredible foot speed, good chin, and speed of hand...for Liston not being able to make up the room to get his shots in, it was probably a mental break-down like Duran vs Leonard II; I am not sure about the shoulder injury, but I could see it being true since a big guy like Liston, who throws hard, would be throwing hard punches at air, not landing on something solid like Ali's body, could cause you to throw out your shoulder.

Same thing I keep saying in a sense, Liston didn't quit on his stool. I think that was the first time in his career he did that. Liston, as most of the American people, expected a young, niave, trash talking boxer named Cassius Clay to go into the ring that night and get schooled. People (for the most part) never saw Cassius Clay fight, so when he started showing up just trash talking, calling Liston a big bear people thought the guy was nuts. They didn't think he could fight they thought he could just talk.

They fully expected him to go in there that night and just go straight at Liston. He surprised everyone. Went in on his toes, danced, and won. Thats why he said stuff like "I told you I'm the Greatest and you didn't believe me".


Fact I'm trying to make is Liston never quit on his stool he only quit against Ali who was probably the best fighter he faced during his career. Of course the only big names he really fought Floyd Patterson and Cleavland Williams
and if you consider
Zora Folley and Chuck Wepner big names then he fought these 4.

[Abe Attell]

Butterfly1964: your gif is a perfect example how fustrating it could be for a fighter; can you just imagine the embarrassment a fighter feels



I could imagine the fighters that fought Ali before his exile, seeing how he wasn't the same fighter after the layoff, probably thought to themselves, "I wish I could fight the S.O.B. now."



Going back to the Liston talk...The end probably came after the supposed blinding of Ali, when Ali couldn't see and wasn't moving around like he was early, causing Ali to be a "sitting duck" for Liston's power shots, but Sonny couldn't knock him down, even though he landed some terrible shots...what Liston didn't know, what most people didn't know, was that Ali could take incredible amounts of punishment, both to the head, and to the body.

People who were afraid for Ali to go in against Foreman seemed to over-look this fight, but I do think this is one of the reasons that Ali had confidence going into the fight with Foreman: if he could take Liston's power, being blind, why couldn't he take George's power, seeing it 10 miles coming?

[butterfly1964]

Same thing I keep saying in a sense, Liston didn't quit on his stool. I think that was the first time in his career he did that. Liston, as most of the American people, expected a young, niave, trash talking boxer named Cassius Clay to go into the ring that night and get schooled. People (for the most part) never saw Cassius Clay fight, so when he started showing up just trash talking, calling Liston a big bear people thought the guy was nuts. They didn't think he could fight they thought he could just talk.

They fully expected him to go in there that night and just go straight at Liston. He surprised everyone. Went in on his toes, danced, and won. Thats why he said stuff like "I told you I'm the Greatest and you didn't believe me".


Fact I'm trying to make is Liston never quit on his stool he only quit against Ali who was probably the best fighter he faced during his career. Of course the only big names he really fought Floyd Patterson and Cleavland Williams
and if you consider
Zora Folley and Chuck Wepner big names then he fought these 4.

Also in 1963, the close decision aginst Doug Jones and the almost upset by Henry Cooper really made people think he was a joke, so that had a lot to do with Liston-Clay I being one of the greatest upsets.

[Heckler]

Also in 1963, the close decision aginst Doug Jones and the almost upset by Henry Cooper really made people think he was a joke, so that had a lot to do with Liston-Clay I being one of the greatest upsets.

Ali always performed best when pushed to the edge of a cliff.

[SABBATH]

Liston wasn't exactly notorious for using his jab to keep an opponent away from himself. Usually it was used as a blinder to get inside and pound. Inside is Rocky's game in almost any contest. Liston would score points, move in, and Rocky would fire back. I guarantee Rocky would earn Sonny's respect. The tale of the tape doesn't always determine the outcome. The bigger the challenge for Marciano, the more he stepped up his game.

Liston had a freakishly long 84' inch reach and kept guys at bay with it. It was a jackhammer and he would often double it and follow through with a long right hand. It was not a blinder, it was possibly his best weapon, he threw it with great regularity and he is generally recognized today as having the hardest jab of any of the heavyweight champions. Liston was not known particularly as an infighter although when he had a guy hurt he got closer and shortened his hooks up.

Liston's style is often gauged by the first Ali fight where he chased Ali around the ring. That wasn't exactly Liston's style. Liston was usually much more patient than that fight would indicate.

Liston was more Joe Louis (boxer/puncher) than he was Frazier or Tyson (aggressive swarmer). Even the Patterson fights show this despite them being first round KO's.

Liston didn't tear after his opponents looking for the early stoppage. He fought as a boxer but his power ultimately would hurt his opponent which is when he would go for the kill. Again not unlike Joe Louis who was Liston's idol.

A word about Liston-Marciano. Marciano was quoted when Liston was champion as saying he would not have wanted to fight Liston.

Milt Bailey who was a longtime cornerman for both Liston and Frazier said Liston would have beaten Frazier had they fought in their primes.

[Southpaw Stinger]

A word about Liston-Marciano. Marciano was quoted when Liston was champion as saying he would not have wanted to fight Liston.

Milt Bailey who was a longtime cornerman for both Liston and Frazier said Liston would have beaten Frazier had they fought in their primes.

Interesting stuff.