Anyone else agree SRR is overrated?

[tanibanana]

So you want to know why Sugar Ray was the greatest...


Undefeated Amateur Featherweight Golden Gloves Champion
Undefeated Amateur Lightweight Golden Gloves Champion
Undefeated & Uncrowned Lightweight Champion
Undefeated Welterweight Champion
5 Time World Middleweight Champion
And Nearly the Light Heavyweight Champion


Amateur Career:


Overall, Robinson had an open record of 85-0, winning both the Featherweight and Lightweight Golden Gloves Championships in the process. 65 of the wins came by KO, 40 of which took place in the first round.


Lightweight Career:


You're probably asking yourself, “What Lightweight career?”. Although a brief one, Robinson did in fact have a substantial Lightweight career. He beat the NBA and soon to be World Lightweight Champion (Sammy Angott) after all, whilst maintaining a record of 21-0 with 18 KOs. His additional notable opponents included Pete Lello and Maxie Shapiro.


Welterweight Career:


As a Welterweight, Robinson was undefeated. Going against the likes of Fritzie Zivic, Henry Armstrong, and Kid Gavilan, this was an impressive feat. Counting Robinson's actual amount of Welterweight fights is rather tricky considering he often mixed it up with Middleweights as well. Nonetheless I have calculated that it was about 58 fights. He won them all without draws, and did so with no real controversial victories, the closest to controversy being the first fight with Kid Gavilan. It's also important to note that whilst still being a natural Welterweight, Robinson had beat Jake LaMotta 4 out of 5 times.


Middleweight Career:


Robinson's MW Record before becoming World Champion for the 1st time
*Includes his winning of the title
*Fighters in bold are notable

Wins:
Jake LaMotta (x5)
Vic Dellicurti (x3)
Lou Woods
Jose Basora
Jimmy Mandell
Tony Riccio
Freddie Flores (x2)
Freddie Wilson (x2)
Vinnie Vines
Artie Levine
Georgie Abrams
Eddie Finazzo
Ossie Harris (x2)
Henry Brimm (x2)
Don Lee (x2)
Earl Turner
Cecil Hudson (x2)
Steve Belloise
Charley Dodson
Aaron Wade
Cliff Beckett (x2)
Ray Barnes
Robert Villemain (x2)
Billy Brown
Joe Rindone
Bobo Olson
Jean Stock
Luc van Dam
Hans Stretz

Losses:
Jake LaMotta II

Draws:
Jose Basora
Henry Brimm

That's 43 Middleweight wins with only 1 loss and 2 draws upon winning the World Championship.


Robinson's MW Record from after winning the title for the 1st time to losing it for the last time
*Does not include his first winning of the title
*Does not include his last loss of the title
*Fighters in bold are notable

Wins:
Holley Mims
Don Ellis
Kid Marcel
Jean Wanes
Jan de Bruin
Jean Walzack
Gerhard Hecht (Although declared a NC, for all intensive purposes it's a win)
Cyrille Delannoit
Randy Turpin
Bobo Olson (x3)
Rocky Graziano
Joe Rindone
Johnny Lombardo
Ted Olla
Garth Panter
Rocky Castellani
Bob Provizzi
Gene Fullmer
Carmen Basilio
Bob Young

Losses:
Randy Turpin I
Joey Maxim
Ralph Jones
Gene Fullmer I
Carmen Basilio I


That's 22 Middleweight wins with 5 losses, but 1 was at LHW.

So lets do some math here, 46 + 26 = 72. Robinson essentially had 72 Middleweight fights before you could officially label him as washed up (when he finally lost his MW title for the last time). Of those 72 fights, he won 65, lost 5, and drew twice. One loss came in a fight where he was outweighed by 16 lbs, and three came after he returned from retirement. Randy Turpin's win over Robinson is perhaps the only really meaningful one. Yet when Turpin beat Robinson, Ray had already previously had 132 professional bouts. Everyone who beat Robinson, aside from Tiger Jones (who caught Robinson nearly just out of retirement), was a great fighter. The names on his resume speak for themselves, the man truly was the greatest.


Robinson's Unquantified-but-Detailed Complete Career Resume:

*Info below uses Ring Annual Ratings
*Hall of Famers in bold

Pete Lello (#3 LW – 1940)
Sammy Angott (#1 LW – 1940, LW Champ – 1941, #2 LW – 1943, #8 WW – 1945)
Maxie Shapiro (#8 LW – 1942)
Marty Servo [Undefeated] (WW Champ – 1946)
Fritzie Zivic (WW Champ – 1940, #3 WW – 1941, #8 WW 1942)
Maxie Berger (JWW Champ – 1939, #6 WW – 1940)
Norman Rubio (#10 WW – 1941)
Reuben Shank (#8 MW – 1943)
Tony Motisi (#9 WW – 1942)
Jake LaMotta (#6 MW – 1942, #1 MW – 1943, #2 MW – 1944, #3 MW – 1945, #1 MW – 1946)
(#5 MW – 1947, #3 MW – 1948, MW Champ – 1949 & 1950)
Izzy Janazzo (#2 WW – 1940, #8 WW – 1941 & 1943)
Vic Dellicurti (#10 MW – 1944)
Al Nettlow (couple close fights with Bob Montgomery, beat Maxie Berger)
California Jackie Wilson (#2 WW – 1941, #3 WW – 1942)
Ralph Zannelli (#5 WW – 1943, #4 WW – 1947)
Henry Armstrong (WW Champ – 1938 & 1939, #1 WW – 1940, #2 WW – 1942, #1 WW – 1944)
Sheik Rangel (#10 WW – 1942)
George Martin (beat Ralph Zannelli, Garvey Young, V. Vines, Pedro Montanez, Battling Battalino, Andy Callahan)
Tommy Bell (#1 WW – 1946, #2 WW – 1947)
George Costner (#5 WW – 1947, #2 WW – 1949)
Jimmy McDaniels (#4 WW – 1944)
O'Neill Bell (just beat George Costner, Jackie Wilson, and Fritzie Zivic back to back to back)
Joe Curcio (beat Fritzie Zivic, Cecil Hudson, and Johnny Green)
Vinnie Vines (beat Sam Baroudi and Jackie Alzek)
Ossie Harris (beat Tommy Bell, Reuben Shank, and Fritzie Zivic)
Cecil Hudson (beat Tommy Bell, Fritzie Zivic, Freddie Dixon, Ossie Harris, & Sheik Rangel)
Artie Levine (beat Jimmy Doyle, Marvin Bryant, Vic Dellicurti, Herbie Kronowitz, & Joe Agosta)
Georgie Abrams (#5 MW – 1946)
Jimmy Doyle (#2 WW – 1945, #7 WW – 1946)
Billy Nixon (beat Johnny Green, Buster Tyler, & Johnny Hutchinson)
Chuck Taylor (beat Frankie Abrams, Tony Pellone, and Honeychile Johnson)
Henry Brimm (beat Vic Dellicurti, Holman Williams, Joey DeJohn, Arte Towne, & Tony Elizondo)
Bernard Docusen (#3 WW – 1948 & 1949)
Kid Gavilan (#1 WW – 1948, 1949, 1950, & 1951, WW Champ – 1952 & 1953)
Bobby Lee (beat Livio Minelli, Billy Nixon, Nava Esparza, Dorsey Lay, Honeychile Johnson, Chico Varona, & Gene Burton)
Don Lee (beat Jimmy McDaniels, Vince Foster, Sheik Rangel, Joe Danos, Howard Bleyhl, Billy Tierney)
Earl Turner (beat Sheik Rangel, Fred Apostoli, Cecil Hudson, Cocoa Kid, Don Lee, Jackie Wilson, George Costner, George Duke, etc)
Steve Belloise (#2 MW – 1948, #5 MW – 1949)
Al Mobley (beat Fritzie Zivic, Georgie Benton, Honeychile Johnson, George Martin, Sylvester Perkins, Otis Graham, & Bert Linam)
Aaron Wade (#7 MW – 1945)
Ray Barnes (#7 MW – 1950)
Robert Villemain (#3 MW – 1949, #8 MW – 1950, #9 MW – 1951)
Charley Fusari (#3 WW – 1950, #8 WW – 1951)
Jose Basora (#4 MW – 1943 & 1944)
Joe Rindone (beat Ralph Zannelli, Paul Pender, Bob Murphy, Pierre Langlois, Joe Blackwood, Charley Zivic, & Henry Lee)
Bobo Olson (#3 MW – 1952, MW Champ – 1953 & 1954, #1 MW – 1955)
Bobby Dykes (#2 WW – 1952, #5 MW – 1953)
Jean Stock (beat Randy Turpin, Bobby Dawson, Omar Kouidri, Cyrille Delannoit, Robert Charron, Edouard Tenet)
Luc van Dam (beat Jean Stock, Cyrille Delannoit, Jacques Royer Crecy, Albert Finch, Bep van Klaveren, & Felix Wouters)
Hans Stretz (beat Randy Turpin, Jacques Royer Crecy, Al Mobley, Peter Mueller, Rudi Pepper)
(Carl Schmidt, Heinz Sanger, Alex Buxton, Johnny Sullivan, Franco Festucci)
Holley Mims (#8 MW – 1953, #3 MW – 1954, #6 MW – 1955)
Cyrille Delannoit (#5 MW – 1948)
Randy Turpin (#1 MW – 1951 & 1952, MW Champ – 1951)
Rocky Graziano (#3 MW – 1946, MW Champ – 1947, #10 MW – 1948 & 1951)
Garth Panter (beat Pierre Langlois, Walter Cartier, and Earl Turner)
Rocky Castellani (#1 MW – 1953, #2 MW – 1954, #5 MW – 1955)
Gene Fullmer (#1 MW – 1956, MW Champ – 1957, #2 MW – 1957 & 1958, #1 MW – 1959, 1960, 1961, & 1962)
Carmen Basilio (WW Champ – 1955 & 1956, MW Champ – 1957, #1 MW – 1958)
Denny Moyer (#9 MW – 1961, #6 MW – 1962, JMW Champ – 1963, #9 MW – 1968, #2 MW – 1969)
Ralph Dupas (#2 WW – 1961, #3 WW – 1962, #4 WW – 1963, JMW Champ – 1963)
Yoland Leveque (beat Bennie Briscoe, Jacques Marty, Art Hernandez, & Bo Hogberg)

this post makes me subscribe to the topic..
great post..

as for SRR being overrated?
the question alone makes him underrated.

[GameGod]

Refute his post? Basicely you want me to claim Gay Robinson was actually a bum and not an ATG?
What you nuthugging fools seem to fail to realise is that my main problem is that Gay is rated #1, I never said he wasn't an ATG. And most of all, that Gay is rated #1 BLINDLY by the majority of people is what makes Gay overrated.



(I had to cut a part out of this terrible post because it was too long to post)
See this is what I already explained earlier. It is all mostly based on stats. These same nuthuggers will tell you that today's fighters with their unbeaten perfect records mean nothing. Mostly based on stats, and if you look at the quality of opposition you can find other ATG's who were greater than GAY Robinson.

Please, just get out of here. The fighters in bold are rated as all-time greats. No one in history faced the same or greater quality of opposition and came out as well as Sugar Ray Robinson. This has been analyzed many times, and the same conclusion has been arrived at. Why is he rated as the #1 Welterweight of all-time? Because, short of Sugar Ray Leonard, he beat every other Welterweight on the Top 10 list conclusively and multiple times. Can you name another boxer who faced a higher quality opposition? I doubt it.

[JAB5239]

Please, just get out of here. The fighters in bold are rated as all-time greats. No one in history faced the same or greater quality of opposition and came out as well as Sugar Ray Robinson. This has been analyzed many times, and the same conclusion has been arrived at. Why is he rated as the #1 Welterweight of all-time? Because, short of Sugar Ray Leonard, he beat every other Welterweight on the Top 10 list conclusively and multiple times. Can you name another boxer who faced a higher quality opposition? I doubt it.

This is the problem GG, he wants to detract from Robinson for what he didn't do. He refuses to give credit for what he DID do and in comparison to other greats. Its a flawed logic that can't be taken seriously.

[Suckmedry]

Refute his post? Basicely you want me to claim Gay Robinson was actually a bum and not an ATG?
What you nuthugging fools seem to fail to realise is that my main problem is that Gay is rated #1, I never said he wasn't an ATG. And most of all, that Gay is rated #1 BLINDLY by the majority of people is what makes Gay overrated.



(I had to cut a part out of this terrible post because it was too long to post)
See this is what I already explained earlier. It is all mostly based on stats. These same nuthuggers will tell you that today's fighters with their unbeaten perfect records mean nothing. Mostly based on stats, and if you look at the quality of opposition you can find other ATG's who were greater than GAY Robinson.

And the ridiculous amount of names that appear on Ray's resume!!! Did you read the post!!!

[Obama]

In regards to dunce's post,I suggest that he find a hobby in future.I find it difficult to give him credit considering he copy and pasted most of this crap from other sites.


Dunce relies heavily on what the internet boxing historians say and he has admitted as much in the past.



We excuse Robinson for avoiding all these elite black fighters because they may have been a little bigger than him.Robinson's record indicates that he had no trouble fighting middleweights.Many of these elite blacks were alot smaller than Jake Lamotta was.

You're a sad little boy who fabricates the truth to suit your perceptions of people. There is much anger in you, and it has nothing to do with anyone in the history section.

Feel free not to give me credit for my post, I know I wrote it. When I don't write something, I quote it / link to it. And that's the bottom line.

[bklynboy]

You're a sad little boy who fabricates the truth to suit your perceptions of people. There is much anger in you, and it has nothing to do with anyone in the history section.

Feel free not to give me credit for my post, I know I wrote it. When I don't write something, I quote it / link to it. And that's the bottom line.

It was a great post *****. Thx.

Refering to the OP and Slimey Limey, I think there is nothing wrong with thinking that Sugar Ray Robinson is not the greatest of all time PROVIDED you come up with an argument that explains otherwise. Who would you consider to be a possible alternative as the GOAT?

SlimeyLimey seems to be reflexive contrarian -- "Everybody thinks SRR is the greatest -- well I don't." Fine. Well, who should we consider as alternatives?

[GJC]

It was a great post *****. Thx.

Refering to the OP and Slimey Limey, I think there is nothing wrong with thinking that Sugar Ray Robinson is not the greatest of all time PROVIDED you come up with an argument that explains otherwise. Who would you consider to be a possible alternative as the GOAT?

SlimeyLimey seems to be reflexive contrarian -- "Everybody thinks SRR is the greatest -- well I don't." Fine. Well, who should we consider as alternatives?

It's never going to happen, Slimey will never put himself up like that and will content himself to take potshots.
Great post from ***** full of fact and opinion and available to someone to argue with, but Slimey just says its a terrible post. So then refute it or at least some of it?
Or you could say maybe Greb is a better fighter than Robinson and post why. But that would involve making a contribution and putting yourself out there.

[Slimey Limey]

There are a couple of cases that are too sensitive for the type of people that you see in this thread. With bumbeater and Gay Robinson I usually do not bother wasting my time. No matter what "explanation" I would give you lads, there is something in your brain that triggers an immense refusal to be objective and an emotional response of lashing out with anger and refusal. Cause of the moment you became a boxing fan, you were spoonfed these things about these fighters and to this day you refuse to accept otherwise, because if you see someone disagreeing with those ideals, it goes against everything you were ever taught about Boxing. It just stuck with your characters. For me personally, my lists change all the time. And nothing is more obvious to me than Muhammed Ali being the greatest boxer ever, and I debated this in the past. I also started out as a parrot thinking SRR is God, #1 fo sheezy mah neezy. But when I developd my own mind and opinions, I came to the conclusion that he is overrated.

[GJC]

There are a couple of cases that are too sensitive for the type of people that you see in this thread. With bumbeater and Gay Robinson I usually do not bother wasting my time. No matter what "explanation" I would give you lads, there is something in your brain that triggers an immense refusal to be objective and an emotional response of lashing out with anger and refusal. Cause of the moment you became a boxing fan, you were spoonfed these things about these fighters and to this day you refuse to accept otherwise, because if you see someone disagreeing with those ideals, it goes against everything you were ever taught about Boxing. It just stuck with your characters. For me personally, my lists change all the time. And nothing is more obvious to me than Muhammed Ali being the greatest boxer ever, and I debated this in the past. I also started out as a parrot thinking SRR is God, #1 fo sheezy mah neezy. But when I developd my own mind and opinions, I came to the conclusion that he is overrated.

Well in the middle of the usual nonsense we have your opinion rather than you slagging off other peoples opinions.
OK deep breath, next big step why do you consider Ali a better fighter than Robinson?

[Obama]

Somehow I think these guys deeply resent the lack of African American elites on Robinson's resume, something Ali can't be accused of. There's 1 problem with that train of thought. There weren't any real elite White fighters out there for Ali to beat up on. The best available to him, Jerry Quarry, he fought twice.

Robinson simply had a much deeper pool available to him. With a pool so deep, this allows a great fighter to pick and choose fights that make the most sense monetarily without scrutiny from normal fight fans.

That said, a flip through the Ring Ratings in the WW/MW division would suggest that Charley Burley, Holman Williams, and Cocoa Kid were the only real AA threats out there for him whom he didn't fight.