The Greatness of Joe Frazier and an example of when the lineal was needed and came to the rescue of boxing

[billeau2]

When Ali was stripped of his title there was protest. He was considered undisputed. Now, I do not care what any organization said otherwise and the fans felt the same. DEspite a hostile establishment the fans were behind their champion. And so the promoters decided to have a tourney to decide... You ready for this? The undisputed Heavyweight champion of the world. This is also called the Lineal to some of us BTW.

Here is the thing: The fans demanded this. Boxing could not simply make Ali dissapear. The fans knew whom was the best, the undisputed, the lineal... Boxing was not allowed under any color of law, or authority to just make Ali go away.

The lineal ensured that once Frazier won the tourney he fought Ali. No alphabet, no magazine title, no gangster conglomerate had any say in the matter, boxing at its best was determined by the lineal, it was the lineal alone that upheld the position of Ali... Yes there were protests to stripping the title from Ali, as there should have been (to many of us). But the resolution of this situation was clearly a matter of the best versus the best for the undisputed heavyweight lineal belt. Call it what you like...

The lineal here coincided with boxing at its strongest. Frazier was no paper champ. He beat some great fighters! Watch Buster Mathus, watch the man box... Watch Ellis, Frazier beat real quality opposition and proved he was worthy when he fought Ali.

The lineal alone was gracious, equinanimous. judicious and allowed for a situation where the best had to beat the best.

Kafkod and the rest of the Bleaters: Do any of you think some corrupt, self serving American organization would have seen to such a resolution? The establishment wanted to make Ali dissapear. Sure the tourney was carried out under some organization, BUT the chance Ali had, and the resolution of the Title was purely a process of the lineal doing what it was supposed to do.

[QueensburyRules]

When Ali was stripped of his title there was protest. He was considered undisputed. Now, I do not care what any organization said otherwise and the fans felt the same. DEspite a hostile establishment the fans were behind their champion. And so the promoters decided to have a tourney to decide... You ready for this? The undisputed Heavyweight champion of the world. This is also called the Lineal to some of us BTW.

Here is the thing: The fans demanded this. Boxing could not simply make Ali dissapear. The fans knew whom was the best, the undisputed, the lineal... Boxing was not allowed under any color of law, or authority to just make Ali go away.

The lineal ensured that once Frazier won the tourney he fought Ali. No alphabet, no magazine title, no gangster conglomerate had any say in the matter, boxing at its best was determined by the lineal, it was the lineal alone that upheld the position of Ali... Yes there were protests to stripping the title from Ali, as there should have been (to many of us). But the resolution of this situation was clearly a matter of the best versus the best for the undisputed heavyweight lineal belt. Call it what you like...

The lineal here coincided with boxing at its strongest. Frazier was no paper champ. He beat some great fighters! Watch Buster Mathus, watch the man box... Watch Ellis, Frazier beat real quality opposition and proved he was worthy when he fought Ali.

The lineal alone was gracious, equinanimous. judicious and allowed for a situation where the best had to beat the best.

Kafkod and the rest of the Bleaters: Do any of you think some corrupt, self serving American organization would have seen to such a resolution? The establishment wanted to make Ali dissapear. Sure the tourney was carried out under some organization, BUT the chance Ali had, and the resolution of the Title was purely a process of the lineal doing what it was supposed to do.

- - Ali asked Nat to award the Ring Belt to the winner of sparmate Jimmy Ellis vs Jerry Quarry that Ellis squeaked a majority decision win, in this case Nat being the Authority along with WBA who originally stripped Ali because he rematched the disgraced Sonny Liston...

[Marchegiano]

To be honest I think I missed the point.


Because Ali got stripped now Frazier is worthy and this somehow is the grace of the lineal or lineage?


As far as I know Ali's stripping was across the board. As in no org stuck their neck out for him. I have, in the past, made the mistake of going too hard on the colorline in the same posts as highlighting what the bodies have done right and made the mistake of allowing third party readers to believe the bodies are some kind of alternative to the racism of the colorline era rather than complacent at best. Maybe something there to do with this. Fans softening on bodies and hardening on lineal, and the extremes fans tend to go to. I say things like the bodies handle corruption better than organizations that make no pretense at not being corruptible and such, I can see how one might run that too far and find themselves seeing the bodies in too kind of light.


That said, nothing should be safe from this criticism. Or to say that last one differently, I don't see how lineal shines. I do see how unimpactful and unimportant lineal actually is, in this tale. So I got the wrong message. What I mean is i don't need debate I need clarity, then maybe debate. Clearly I did not get what was intended, I need to get it before I agree or refute.





You can not tell me John L is champion simply because the majority believed it and then tell me Ali was champion despite majority acceptance of his stripping.


Like or not boxing went on without him and the voices who called against this were small. There is no great protection from any great promoter. Not even Ring refused to strip Ali. WBA, WBC, and Ring agreed. That's boxing for ya.


You can tell me Ali being a draft dodger was back then viewed by most the way it is now ... but ... I know you know you are lying. They treated him poorly. They being the majority of America.




So, imo, this highlights the failure of lineal. When called for, it will have little to no effect on anything. Likewise, it highlights the greatness of a man beyond his boxing. Take Ali's strip away, take his pain away, and he achieved nothing by opposing. Let his story alone and the man, the champ, the king, sacrificed for the good of his people.




Hell man, when i was young this place still gave Ali biz for dodging the draft. Silly as it is. They are minority now, but not then.

[billeau2]

To be honest I think I missed the point.


Because Ali got stripped now Frazier is worthy and this somehow is the grace of the lineal or lineage?


As far as I know Ali's stripping was across the board. As in no org stuck their neck out for him. I have, in the past, made the mistake of going too hard on the colorline in the same posts as highlighting what the bodies have done right and made the mistake of allowing third party readers to believe the bodies are some kind of alternative to the racism of the colorline era rather than complacent at best. Maybe something there to do with this. Fans softening on bodies and hardening on lineal, and the extremes fans tend to go to. I say things like the bodies handle corruption better than organizations that make no pretense at not being corruptible and such, I can see how one might run that too far and find themselves seeing the bodies in too kind of light.


That said, nothing should be safe from this criticism. Or to say that last one differently, I don't see how lineal shines. I do see how unimpactful and unimportant lineal actually is, in this tale. So I got the wrong message. What I mean is i don't need debate I need clarity, then maybe debate. Clearly I did not get what was intended, I need to get it before I agree or refute.





You can not tell me John L is champion simply because the majority believed it and then tell me Ali was champion despite majority acceptance of his stripping.


Like or not boxing went on without him and the voices who called against this were small. There is no great protection from any great promoter. Not even Ring refused to strip Ali. WBA, WBC, and Ring agreed. That's boxing for ya.


You can tell me Ali being a draft dodger was back then viewed by most the way it is now ... but ... I know you know you are lying. They treated him poorly. They being the majority of America.




So, imo, this highlights the failure of lineal. When called for, it will have little to no effect on anything. Likewise, it highlights the greatness of a man beyond his boxing. Take Ali's strip away, take his pain away, and he achieved nothing by opposing. Let his story alone and the man, the champ, the king, sacrificed for the good of his people.




Hell man, when i was young this place still gave Ali biz for dodging the draft. Silly as it is. They are minority now, but not then.

The point is: The fans recognized Ali, the fans demanded an undisputed... Otherwise who would have cared about designating an interm champion? And who would have cared when Ali was out, about unifying the undisputed? If you read the magazine material at the time, the term "lineal" was used, along with 'Undisputed" because the title was in fact in crisis. The tourney was created after many of the fighters stood by Ali but needed a way to resolve the title...

When it was needed, when a champion was sent to the brig for a protest, the lineal came through. And I mention this because somehow, the Lineal and undisputed became very much words spoken... It appears that when it was needed the lineal was there. Frazier won the tournament and fought Ali... This is perhaps when the heavyweight division was the most powerful it had ever been historically.

This is the best example there is of when the lineal is necessary. Alphabet soup and promoters self interest does not dictate, thrrough motives and money, any reason to hold such a tournament. The fans have to literally demand it. The fans demand it through the sacred language of the lineal: Words like undisputed... Like a magic charm! Or a sip off of what comes out of Queenie's bathtub!

[Willie Pep 229]

Ali's comeback fight against Jerry Quarry (KO3) was scheduled for 15 rounds, as was the Bonavena fight.

If Ali had beaten Frazier the first time out I suspect that Quarry (1) and Bonavena would both be listed as title defenses today.

So goes the history of the lineal title.

[Willie Pep 229]

No one was talking the WBC in 1970-71.

The way it went . . .

The NYSAC recognized the Buster Mathis-Joe Frazier fight for their vacant title. (March 1968)

The WBA Tournament ended with Jimmy Ellis winning a snoozer against Jerry Quarry. (April 1968)

The Ring Magazine declared their title vacant when Ali anounced he was 'officially' retiring. (1970)

Frazier (NYSAC) vs. Ellis (WBA) gave us an 'undisputed' champion. The Ring Magazine recognized the winner Frazier as HW Champion. (Februray 1970)

The NYSAC anounced it would no longer recognize champions.

Frazier-Ali (March 1971) took us back to the lineal championship. (The WBC tried to jump on this band wagon but we didn't notice them.)

The WBC chased after Frazier like a small dog following a parade but no one on the street was talking the WBC. Except maybe some Mexicans and a few burros.

The WBC didn't come to the forefront until Foreman KOed Frazier in February 1973, and Don King needed a sanctioning body he could manipulate. Then we got the WBC shoved down our throats by Don King.

The WBA and the WBC split over the Leon Spinks fight (2) with the WBA recognizing the rematch and the WBC stripping Neon Leon of their title.

Don King had no control over Leon Spinks as Bob Arum promoted both of the Ali-Spinks fights. So Don King encouraged Sulaiman to strip Neon Leon.

The WBC then held the Holmes-Norton fight for the vacant title. Promoted by none other than Don King.

The two SBs would not join again until Tyson.

[Willie Pep 229]

If one wants to know what the populous thought of Muhammad Ali and his resistance to the 'draft,' just tract the opinion polls: "Do you approve of the President's handling of the war in Vietnam?"

They are (almost) perfectly inverse.

In 1967 Ali was a coward.

Three years later (end of) 1970 Ali became another victim of an unjust war.

Ali didn't change a lick. The war did, and with it the popular mindset.

[Marchegiano]

The point is: The fans recognized Ali, the fans demanded an undisputed... Otherwise who would have cared about designating an interm champion? And who would have cared when Ali was out, about unifying the undisputed? If you read the magazine material at the time, the term "lineal" was used, along with 'Undisputed" because the title was in fact in crisis. The tourney was created after many of the fighters stood by Ali but needed a way to resolve the title...

When it was needed, when a champion was sent to the brig for a protest, the lineal came through. And I mention this because somehow, the Lineal and undisputed became very much words spoken... It appears that when it was needed the lineal was there. Frazier won the tournament and fought Ali... This is perhaps when the heavyweight division was the most powerful it had ever been historically.

This is the best example there is of when the lineal is necessary. Alphabet soup and promoters self interest does not dictate, thrrough motives and money, any reason to hold such a tournament. The fans have to literally demand it. The fans demand it through the sacred language of the lineal: Words like undisputed... Like a magic charm! Or a sip off of what comes out of Queenie's bathtub!

You may be giving me too much respect because of my wealth of knowledge dealing with older issues. I have no shame in saying, probably, everyone here, including Queen, knows this subject better than I do. I have never done any independent research into Ali or this situation.


That said, I am not so sold the same industry that rejected him had little or nothing to do with his return, or that it was begrudging. How does any Promoter benefit from Ali being stripped due to some American war? Seems like Uncle Sam was the enemy and big money, fans sure, but also industry, was the hero.


DK can sell me undisputed for 99 cents any day bro. But I think you might need DK for it to happen. Or at least I do not understand what his or any motivation to prevent Ali would be. If anything, isn't this what opened Ali up to King over Arum?

Let me remind you, I'd rate Queen over me here, so talk to me like I am ****** if you have to but don't assume I know. I'm really not leading to anything. I got nothing to lead with.

[Willow The Wisp]

Ali's comeback fight against Jerry Quarry (KO3) was scheduled for 15 rounds, as was the Bonavena fight.

If Ali had beaten Frazier the first time out I suspect that Quarry (1) and Bonavena would both be listed as title defenses today.

So goes the history of the lineal title.

As With Johnson - Jeffries, Charles - Louis, Frazier - Ali I, Holmes - Ali and Fury - Wilder; if the un-deposed champion in recess comes back and wins, his reign continues unabated. And if he loses, his reign is ended and the interim claimant's defenses are legitimized.
Der Sieger wird immer der Richter und der Besiegte stets der Angeklagte sein.

[Willie Pep 229]

As With Johnson - Jeffries, Charles - Louis, Frazier - Ali I, Holmes - Ali and Fury - Wilder; if the un-deposed champion in recess comes back and wins, his reign continues unabated. And if he loses, his reign is ended and the interim claimant's defenses are legitimized.
Der Sieger wird immer der Richter und der Besiegte stets der Angeklagte sein.

Yeah. Exactly, that's the way it has played out.

To understand the lineal title you have to know boxing. You have to understand the logic, the unwritten rules, the precedents.

But because this takes actual knowledge, of the fight game's history, casuals will gravitate towards the sanctioning bodies.

The casual can point to a priinted SB name.

If often takes a paragraph to explain why this guy is the lineal champ and this guy isn't.

You have to know the history to respect the lineal title.