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  • Old school punching technique break down - the lost art of punching - written from a desktop with no artifacts!

    There are many old books written on the topic, Jack Dempsey's being one of the more famous ones (and surprisingly technical) as well as other books such as Boxing: A Guide To Modern Methods" 1931 KNEBWORTH - viscount others by notable boxers like Jim Corbett, Louis and Marciano. The best information however has to be picked up in snippets from great trainers like Jack Blackburn (who in my humble opinion is the greatest trainer of all time at least by contemporary standards) Freddy Browne, Harry Wiley, Ray Arcel and Eddie Futch.

    All of these trainers brings his own style to the art of boxing, and you can notice it around the board on certain fighters. Blackburn's mechanics and ideas are pretty much Joe Louis in a nutshell. and Joe Louis' "stand and listen" personality works quite well with Blackburn's teaching. Blackburn practically morphed Joe Louis into the perfect fighter, physically and mentally. Freddy Browne is well known for his baiting head-movement and inside fighting skills seen both in Duran and Marciano (he doubled as a cutman, but his ideas clearly rubbed off) Arcel added some outside game to Duran's already robust skillset, his right cross and shifting moves to get into position can also be seen with Benny Leonard.

    This post is about punching mechanics. Punching has changed a lot over the years - the punches you see today do not resemble the punches you see of yesteryear. In my personal opinion, The art has actually been lost. Here are a couple detailed points about punching mechanics.

    Punching consists of Leverage and weight-transfer first and foremost. The other factors should be applied after. Leverage is sort of related to balance in some ways, but balance geared towards punching. Blackburn would simplify boxing down to 2 things: Balance and timing (we won't be discussing timing in this post)

    To understand leverage, extend your arm straight out in front of you and attempt to move a heavy object such as a refrigerator. You'll notice pretty soon that to do so, even if you are a large heavy person - takes tremendous strain to keep your balance let alone move the fridge. This is because this is a poorly leveraged position. When a fighter is referred to as an "arm puncher" it really means he is not properly leveraging his punches. his arms are leaving his body and swinging wildly - there is no leverage behind the punch.

    Leverage: Likewise, just like in an arm wrestling competition. The closer your arms are to your body, the more leverage you can generate. By bringing your body in much closer to your hand, your are able to leverage yourself and move the fridge with ease. This alone overcomes all aspects of weight and size. Leverage is king. It should be noted, its the joints that are leveraging, and in regards to punching - it's actually your elbows you must bring in close to your body for optimal leverage.

    Balance: After this comes balance. You would be surprised how off balance most people are. This is because every person has their own unique balance. Some have short legs, some long legs, some are thicker up top and slimmer down low or vice versa. Some people are actually stooping over constantly. Good posture starts with hip alignment. The hands and hips should naturally rest at your sides, not dangle out in front. Start by bringing your hips forward, straightening your back should never be a chore. Don't forget your head and neck. This may take a while, but you will find the optimal balance. Some of you may need more bend in your legs, others may not. Try to look at your weight distribution through a foggy lens as a sort of heat map as to how you might be proportioned. Some may need wider or narrower stances based on how wide your hips are or how long your legs might be.

    Weight transfer: The next is weight transfer. It has to be very subtle. Less is more. The transfer from the back foot to the front foot - but ever so subtle that balance is not compromised. if you hold your arm straight out - as Dempsey would say - practice transferring your weight. you will notice this alone generates a lot of power and/or force without needing to move your arms at all. the same goes for hooks. Practice finding optimal weight transfer. where the weight starts and where it should end. LESS IS MORE. Some of this may need video for a proper description, but those with at least some rudimentary knowledge can fill in the blanks. This is after all, just a theory post. This goes hand in hand with balance and everyone will have their own unique transfer of weight in accordance to their build.


    Those are the fundamental building blocks of punching power. Next up are a few technical things in regards to the human body. Muscles.

    Muscles can contract and detract. That's all they really do and they work together to perform tasks. The kinetic chain is basically a chain reaction of contractions and detractions trained by your mind through repetition. This kinetic chain of events must encompass balance, weight transfer and of course the punch trajectory itself. In order for your muscles to fire in perfect timing over and over - they NEED to be limber. This is why weight lifting, especially heavy stuff is actually terrible for boxing. A dancers body is what you need. A dancers body is what Ray Robinson had. The muscle detracting is just as important as its contracting. If you look at Ray Leonard, or even Duran - they are extremely limber - their arms and bodies move like liquid. You must develop this type of body through extensive stretching and staying far away from anything that hinders this. Certain exercises like shadow boxing underwater and hitting a double end bag or speedbag can help with this.

    Perpetual movement. This is the idea that one movement can start another movement easier than starting a movement from a standstill. Knowing how muscles work, standing completely still will require muscles to contract and detract all the same - you just don't see it under your skin. All movements should start with another movement - creating a small momentum. Most punches start with the jab. The simplest punch to throw with the least complexity in regards to body movement. This is also why Rhythm is very important. it keeps those muscles warm and ready to perform their tasks. It keeps them limber and warmed up. This is NOT the same as telegraphing. Your rhythm can be as broken and non uniform as you want it to be. Telegraphing is anything that is telling your opponent what you are going to do, and often requires it to be habitual.


    Punch type: The type of punch required to hurt a human being must be abrupt and also stiff on connection. Punching a soft target such as a speedbag or a piece of paper will train you to hit properly. A heavy-bag is more so to develop your punching muscles and hands. The human body is soft and vulnerable inside and somewhat armored on the outside. And it's only armored if the punch is seen coming and braced for. If it lands unseen the target is actually soft and super vulnerable. A slow strong push will not hurt a human being, but it may leave a massive dent in your car door. This is why those punch test machines are very useless.

    Follow through:
    understanding how muscles work, the final resting position of the punch should not be on the surface level of the target, no it should be thrown as if the target is not even there. right through.

    Anchoring yourself: Force is invisible. Do not let your punches bounce off the target. Drive your fists through and hold contact for a split second. Allow all the force to reverberate through the victim and not back through yourself. Anchor your feet (sit down) for a second on contact. You can see this as Duran hits the punching bag. Or Marciano. I learned this first hand breaking pipes at work. If the bat bounces the pipe won't break. But stop the bat from bouncing and all that force will snap the pipe. If you want to break someone's ribs do likewise. Instantly bringing your hands back to your face is a sure way to never become a good puncher. This is what amateur's do. Your defense must not be based around blocking everything. your hands are for punching, there are other smarter ways to defend yourself. Sometimes a good offense is also defense in itself.

    endnotes: With all this being said, these are ideas that can be added to someone's punching skillset. It may not teach someone to punch from scratch.

    It is easy to see that the ideal build to achieve this would be a limber, trim body type. with great weight distribution. Joe Louis comes to mind. You do not want extra bulk on your frame. It doesn't matter if fighters today have this, they also don't know how to punch properly and should not be viewed as ideal punchers. There are a few other factors of course, such as velocity, perhaps wrist and joint strength, weight and intangibles that we can't / will never see. I have a few more points I would like to make in regards to the rotator cuff and the natural spring loading of punches to create a snapping motion - but it may be too difficult to convert to words.
    Last edited by them_apples; 08-02-2024, 12:11 AM.

  • #2
    Very nice primor! Here is how I look at rotation. When we rotate the punching arm we perform work... In this case centripedial work. This can be culmulative regarding the other punching dynamics. The ball and socket like structures, specifically the shoulder and hip are designed to perform work that way. For example, bicept curls do not mimic the way a bicept really works, which is to turn as it performs work. The hip likewise... But this gets complicated!

    When we set the hips and spine, and rotate, if the knee and leg turns in the same direction as the punch it is subtractive. We destroy our base if the knee turns out on the shot. Instead let the hips movethe spine and keep the knee at the same angle. We now have generated more culmulative force with the punch by letting the natural rotation of the hip do work properly.

    We never want to destroy our balance while we are hitting. By letting the body do work according to physiology, in this case with a slight rotation of the shoulder and hips to orient the spine, we maximize work and hence force.

    Now sometimes because of distance we do not turn the body... this is ok for short punches. What we never want to do is do work and cut our base out from under us! A great analogy is a tank: The tank's turret needs to turn on a base to generate force, otherwise the force would blow one back.

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    • #3
      BY the way. Great info on what to hit. I use a hemp bag with beans which has more give than a bag for the reasons you stated. You can also hit with specific parts of the hand when practiced properly.

      Oh and one more lol... When we hit straight, where we step in instead of rotate? In order to create our base the maximum force depends on our foot hitting just as the punch reaches maximum extension on the target. This way we literally make the base and the punch one. Think a long swinging punch where we step as we strike... Diffrent manifestation of the same principle. Of course we can rotate more subtlety and conserve energy for a split second as well... But this is harder to do and takes a lot of coordinated effort. The rotation becomes throwing the back shoulder back, with the hips as I sink and ground on the step and punch. You draw a Japanese sword like this as well...
      Last edited by billeau2; 08-02-2024, 06:02 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by billeau2 View Post
        BY the way. Great info on what to hit. I use a hemp bag with beans which has more give than a bag for the reasons you stated. You can also hit with specific parts of the hand when practiced properly.

        Oh and one more lol... When we hit straight, where we step in instead of rotate? In order to create our base the maximum force depends on our foot hitting just as the punch reaches maximum extension on the target. This way we literally make the base and the punch one. Think a long swinging punch where we step as we strike... Diffrent manifestation of the same principle. Of course we can rotate more subtlety and conserve energy for a split second as well... But this is harder to do and takes a lot of coordinated effort. The rotation becomes throwing the back shoulder back, with the hips as I sink and ground on the step and punch. You draw a Japanese sword like this as well...
        I used to think it was all trunk rotation in boxing. Its actually all weight transfer, just there is a degree of rotation (subtle) in weight transfer. But the concept of trunk rotation comes from kungfu. In oldschool boxing there actually is no real trunk rotation since the punch is not a push it is transfer of weight via kinetic chain.

        the pulling of the shoulder back and the opposite knee turning to face the other knee is all weight transfer just like in baseball!

        the appearance of trunk rotation is actually just bringing the right hand to bear, but this isn’t where the power in generated.

        if I understood you correctly, that is
        Last edited by them_apples; 08-02-2024, 09:24 AM.
        JAB5239 JAB5239 billeau2 billeau2 like this.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by them_apples View Post
          There are many old books written on the topic, Jack Dempsey's being one of the more famous ones (and surprisingly technical) as well as other books such as Boxing: A Guide To Modern Methods" 1931 KNEBWORTH - viscount others by notable boxers like Jim Corbett, Louis and Marciano. The best information however has to be picked up in snippets from great trainers like Jack Blackburn (who in my humble opinion is the greatest trainer of all time at least by contemporary standards) Freddy Browne, Harry Wiley, Ray Arcel and Eddie Futch.

          All of these trainers brings his own style to the art of boxing, and you can notice it around the board on certain fighters. Blackburn's mechanics and ideas are pretty much Joe Louis in a nutshell. and Joe Louis' "stand and listen" personality works quite well with Blackburn's teaching. Blackburn practically morphed Joe Louis into the perfect fighter, physically and mentally. Freddy Browne is well known for his baiting head-movement and inside fighting skills seen both in Duran and Marciano (he doubled as a cutman, but his ideas clearly rubbed off) Arcel added some outside game to Duran's already robust skillset, his right cross and shifting moves to get into position can also be seen with Benny Leonard.

          This post is about punching mechanics. Punching has changed a lot over the years - the punches you see today do not resemble the punches you see of yesteryear. In my personal opinion, The art has actually been lost. Here are a couple detailed points about punching mechanics.

          Punching consists of Leverage and weight-transfer first and foremost. The other factors should be applied after. Leverage is sort of related to balance in some ways, but balance geared towards punching. Blackburn would simplify boxing down to 2 things: Balance and timing (we won't be discussing timing in this post)

          To understand leverage, extend your arm straight out in front of you and attempt to move a heavy object such as a refrigerator. You'll notice pretty soon that to do so, even if you are a large heavy person - takes tremendous strain to keep your balance let alone move the fridge. This is because this is a poorly leveraged position. When a fighter is referred to as an "arm puncher" it really means he is not properly leveraging his punches. his arms are leaving his body and swinging wildly - there is no leverage behind the punch.

          Leverage: Likewise, just like in an arm wrestling competition. The closer your arms are to your body, the more leverage you can generate. By bringing your body in much closer to your hand, your are able to leverage yourself and move the fridge with ease. This alone overcomes all aspects of weight and size. Leverage is king. It should be noted, its the joints that are leveraging, and in regards to punching - it's actually your elbows you must bring in close to your body for optimal leverage.

          Balance: After this comes balance. You would be surprised how off balance most people are. This is because every person has their own unique balance. Some have short legs, some long legs, some are thicker up top and slimmer down low or vice versa. Some people are actually stooping over constantly. Good posture starts with hip alignment. The hands and hips should naturally rest at your sides, not dangle out in front. Start by bringing your hips forward, straightening your back should never be a chore. Don't forget your head and neck. This may take a while, but you will find the optimal balance. Some of you may need more bend in your legs, others may not. Try to look at your weight distribution through a foggy lens as a sort of heat map as to how you might be proportioned. Some may need wider or narrower stances based on how wide your hips are or how long your legs might be.

          Weight transfer: The next is weight transfer. It has to be very subtle. Less is more. The transfer from the back foot to the front foot - but ever so subtle that balance is not compromised. if you hold your arm straight out - as Dempsey would say - practice transferring your weight. you will notice this alone generates a lot of power and/or force without needing to move your arms at all. the same goes for hooks. Practice finding optimal weight transfer. where the weight starts and where it should end. LESS IS MORE. Some of this may need video for a proper description, but those with at least some rudimentary knowledge can fill in the blanks. This is after all, just a theory post. This goes hand in hand with balance and everyone will have their own unique transfer of weight in accordance to their build.


          Those are the fundamental building blocks of punching power. Next up are a few technical things in regards to the human body. Muscles.

          Muscles can contract and detract. That's all they really do and they work together to perform tasks. The kinetic chain is basically a chain reaction of contractions and detractions trained by your mind through repetition. This kinetic chain of events must encompass balance, weight transfer and of course the punch trajectory itself. In order for your muscles to fire in perfect timing over and over - they NEED to be limber. This is why weight lifting, especially heavy stuff is actually terrible for boxing. A dancers body is what you need. A dancers body is what Ray Robinson had. The muscle detracting is just as important as its contracting. If you look at Ray Leonard, or even Duran - they are extremely limber - their arms and bodies move like liquid. You must develop this type of body through extensive stretching and staying far away from anything that hinders this. Certain exercises like shadow boxing underwater and hitting a double end bag or speedbag can help with this.

          Perpetual movement. This is the idea that one movement can start another movement easier than starting a movement from a standstill. Knowing how muscles work, standing completely still will require muscles to contract and detract all the same - you just don't see it under your skin. All movements should start with another movement - creating a small momentum. Most punches start with the jab. The simplest punch to throw with the least complexity in regards to body movement. This is also why Rhythm is very important. it keeps those muscles warm and ready to perform their tasks. It keeps them limber and warmed up. This is NOT the same as telegraphing. Your rhythm can be as broken and non uniform as you want it to be. Telegraphing is anything that is telling your opponent what you are going to do, and often requires it to be habitual.


          Punch type: The type of punch required to hurt a human being must be abrupt and also stiff on connection. Punching a soft target such as a speedbag or a piece of paper will train you to hit properly. A heavy-bag is more so to develop your punching muscles and hands. The human body is soft and vulnerable inside and somewhat armored on the outside. And it's only armored if the punch is seen coming and braced for. If it lands unseen the target is actually soft and super vulnerable. A slow strong push will not hurt a human being, but it may leave a massive dent in your car door. This is why those punch test machines are very useless.

          Follow through:
          understanding how muscles work, the final resting position of the punch should not be on the surface level of the target, no it should be thrown as if the target is not even there. right through.

          Anchoring yourself: Force is invisible. Do not let your punches bounce off the target. Drive your fists through and hold contact for a split second. Allow all the force to reverberate through the victim and not back through yourself. Anchor your feet (sit down) for a second on contact. You can see this as Duran hits the punching bag. Or Marciano. I learned this first hand breaking pipes at work. If the bat bounces the pipe won't break. But stop the bat from bouncing and all that force will snap the pipe. If you want to break someone's ribs do likewise. Instantly bringing your hands back to your face is a sure way to never become a good puncher. This is what amateur's do. Your defense must not be based around blocking everything. your hands are for punching, there are other smarter ways to defend yourself. Sometimes a good offense is also defense in itself.

          endnotes: With all this being said, these are ideas that can be added to someone's punching skillset. It may not teach someone to punch from scratch.

          It is easy to see that the ideal build to achieve this would be a limber, trim body type. with great weight distribution. Joe Louis comes to mind. You do not want extra bulk on your frame. It doesn't matter if fighters today have this, they also don't know how to punch properly and should not be viewed as ideal punchers. There are a few other factors of course, such as velocity, perhaps wrist and joint strength, weight and intangibles that we can't / will never see. I have a few more points I would like to make in regards to the rotator cuff and the natural spring loading of punches to create a snapping motion - but it may be too difficult to convert to words.
          Freddy Brown was only called in on a fight to fight basis ,as cut man for Marciano he earned a pittance for his work with Rocky,but then so did Goldman.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Bronson66 View Post
            Freddy Brown was only called in on a fight to fight basis ,as cut man for Marciano he earned a pittance for his work with Rocky,but then so did Goldman.
            I don’t know exactly how involved he was with any which fighter, I can just recognize his work when I see it. Marciano only used him as a cutman, but most assuredly he picked up things from Freddy Brown. He uses his moves.

            OR

            wildcard, Marciano made up or learned the moves and Brown taught them to Duran. I forgot about the timeline
            Last edited by them_apples; 08-02-2024, 11:31 AM.
            Bronson66 Bronson66 likes this.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by them_apples View Post

              I used to think it was all trunk rotation in boxing. Its actually all weight transfer, just there is a degree of rotation (subtle) in weight transfer. But the concept of trunk rotation comes from kungfu. In oldschool boxing there actually is no real trunk rotation since the punch is not a push it is transfer of weight via kinetic chain.

              the pulling of the shoulder back and the opposite knee turning to face the other knee is all weight transfer just like in baseball!

              the appearance of trunk rotation is actually just bringing the right hand to bear, but this isnâÂÂt where the power in generated.

              if I understood you correctly, that is
              Know why? It all makes perfect sense!

              In old school boxing they were not concerned with hitting harder because the hands had a certain tolerance. You can see from information back then the magic elixer was tied up in making the hands impervious. gas... Linseed oil... Bike tape... Trunk rotation and weight transfer are the two methods, and older Chinese Boxing did make a distinction with Hsing Yi (weight transfer, hitting straight) and Ba Gua Hitting circular rotating the body on a fixed point).

              Most of the older methods, because they were so tied to fencing were tied up with what you term a "push." You Push off the back leg... Bruce Lee changed this to lifting the heel up and pushing off with the toes, same idea. You get subtle rotation from that throwing back of the back shoulder, and yes... the power comes from having everything kinetically aligned. Power leaks from any point not aligned... an elbow bent, a leg pushing off at the wrong angle... a wrist bent in a direction not aligned. The other big things are the timing (foot should hit ideally, simulteneously with impact from the strike) and sinking.

              Tai Chi is used for this lol. While it has questionable applications in and if itself, it teaches one to sink down into technique...When I teach hitting I use this idea and tell people it is not so much about digging in, rather one should solidify the body, sink down gently so the strike is grounded. Most people habitually want to get into a stance lol, but this destroys the fluidity and quickness of the attack. I call this the dichotomy of solidifying/dissolving oneself.

              Yes, trunk rotation is distinct from these dynamics. In japanese arts Koppo technique uses weight shift, angles and the same kinematic chain. These are for breaking bones... Circular stuff is for hitting fast and fleshy targets, called s h i t o or koshi Jutsu. It is in so many different approaches!
              Last edited by billeau2; 08-02-2024, 03:19 PM.
              Kid Cauliflower Kid Cauliflower likes this.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by them_apples View Post

                I used to think it was all trunk rotation in boxing. Its actually all weight transfer, just there is a degree of rotation (subtle) in weight transfer. But the concept of trunk rotation comes from kungfu. In oldschool boxing there actually is no real trunk rotation since the punch is not a push it is transfer of weight via kinetic chain.

                the pulling of the shoulder back and the opposite knee turning to face the other knee is all weight transfer just like in baseball!

                the appearance of trunk rotation is actually just bringing the right hand to bear, but this isnâÂÂt where the power in generated.

                if I understood you correctly, that is
                Your understanding is excellent... Basically JUST making the effort to understand these ideas is an achievement. It takes a lot of patience and time to work with physiology properly. And you mentioned baseball... Yes! Golf as well.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Since I’ve been studying oldschool punching, I’ve noticed I hit so much harder now my hands feel like they might break. I double wrap and use knuckles guards and even tape my knuckles. I use the small bag mitts and people tell me to use the bigger gloves, but the thing is, big gloves won’t allow you to properly develope punch technique. Your energy will start to focus on moving the extra weight of the glove rather than develop the driving muscles. The best way is to have a small light pair of gloves but drive them as hard as possible into the bag.

                  here is my left hook to the body: https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMr4L4dxY/

                  and some general power shots adhering to the principles posted

                  https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMr4LbgDq/ (Ignore the goofy ass music)

                  A well known coach in the area, before I sparred - did some pad work with me before I got in the ring - I think he was testing me out before he threw me in with someone. I was just tapping the pads to warm up and not be obnoxious. He told me to wack his body really hard and that he was used to it (he holds a pad there to absord the shot). So I threw that same left hook and it sank right through the pad and almost put him to a knee. He then did a lap around the ring and said he totally did not expect that. This is how I ended up sparring that (national champ). So I know this **** works and is working. I can see its a different style than most modern boxers.

                  then the national champ for lack of a better word ran from me for 3 rounds, and in the last round tried to mix it up with me because I think he felt weak, then I drove an uppercut inside on him and absolutely crunched his nose. I also remember making him miss 90 percent of the shots he threw. I can vividly remember making him miss about 9 shots in the pocket and hearing him take a deep breath. I only recall him landing one good shot, and it wasnt that bad because me and him were the same size I’m used to sparring much bigger guys. It sort of just bounced off my headgear.

                  I also notice my knuckles growing sharper and larger from all the hard impact over the past few years. Something old fighters had.
                  Last edited by them_apples; 08-04-2024, 11:48 AM.
                  Bronson66 Bronson66 JAB5239 JAB5239 like this.

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                  • #10
                    Interesting information, thanks.

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