Page 302 in the book “unbeaten”

[Bronson66]

Marciano beats 99.9 percent of heavyweights / fighters. P4p he�������¢����������������s best boxer of all time at least on film. He has the most important attribute of all - heart. Heart is effort. Heart means you train harder and try harder than everyone. You focus harder. You are dedicated. You improvise and adapt. He learned how to box in the pro ranks, he had next to no ammy career; hes a better fighter in his last fight than he is in the middle of his career. He never lost. If compubox was around in his day, he holds the record by far. If real knockouts were counted - where the opponent is unable to stand up - he likely holds the percentage record in that as well. Nobody was stopping his fights, he was stopping them. The harder someone goes at him the harder he fights back. His style beats just about every style (the crouch). Tall guys simply can�������¢����������������t punch down at a squatting shorter fighter whos stronger than them.

yeah, its all speculation who he can beat - but likewise its all speculation on who can beat him because he never did lose. We already went over this, but if one guy caught a beating in the sparring session between Ali and Rock, it was Ali asking for more money and taking a knee. It was Ali with welts all over his body and it was Ali on TV praising Marciano - the same man who openly talks down to Ali and calls him clay. Take it over leave it, the evidence all points to Marciano the better man. It was Marciano who was older, smaller and fatter. Marciano had much more time off, not Ali.

he was 185 lbs beating Walcott, Charles and Moore. He had no size advantage and dismembered all of them. Considering size was not the advantage here - these guys p4p were some of the best to ever do it. Even if age is a factor for Moore and Walcott, it wasn�������¢����������������t for Ezzard. By the same standard should other heavyweights be judged.

who did Sonny Liston beat for example?

who did Larry Holmes beat? (And lose to)

He weighed 2lbs more than Charles 1st fight ,Rocky and Moore were 188lbs.
Marciano was the heavier man in 15 of his fights, and he fought 7 light heavyweights not counting Moore.

[them_apples]

He weighed 2lbs more than Charles 1st fight ,Rocky and Moore were 188lbs.
Marciano was the heavier man in 15 of his fights, and he fought 7 light heavyweights not counting Moore.

Doesnt matter, thats all within the realm of water weight. They were the same size. Charles weighed more in the second fight. A few lbs makes actually 0 difference. He gave up almost 30 against Louis.

”he fought 7 light heavies” well Marciano was a light heavy. There was just no second day weigh in and no cruiserweight division.

Holmes lost to a light heavy twice.

Louis lost to the same light heavy Rock beat, and Louis was actually fighting a light heavy that night.

Listons best win is against a light heavyweight. Same with Mike Tyson. Spinks hadn’t fought in a year and was set to retire. patterson wasn’t ever even that great of a fighter to begin with.

who knows if Mike even beats The spinks that fought Holmes. Its 2 completely different fighters, just like Mike vs Lewis or Liston vs Leotis Martin. Spinks basically took the fight for the cheque - he did what king wanted - lose and lose early.

also, liston lost early in his career to a Journeyman.

apparently Liston is past his prime against Clay, yet his fight previous to this was the best win of his career? So many double standards.

its literally just cause Rock is small nobody gives him a shot or realizes how good he was.

[Bronson66]

Doesnt matter, thats all within the realm of water weight. They were the same size. Charles weighed more in the second fight. A few lbs makes actually 0 difference. He gave up almost 30 against Louis.

���¢��������he fought 7 light heavies���¢�������� well Marciano was a light heavy. There was just no second day weigh in and no cruiserweight division.

Holmes lost to a light heavy twice.

Louis lost to the same light heavy Rock beat, and Louis was actually fighting a light heavy that night.

Listons best win is against a light heavyweight. Same with Mike Tyson. Spinks hadn�t fought in a year and was set to retire. patterson wasn�t ever even that great of a fighter to begin with.

who knows if Mike even beats The spinks that fought Holmes. Its 2 completely different fighters, just like Mike vs Lewis or Liston vs Leotis Martin. Spinks basically took the fight for the cheque - he did what king wanted - lose and lose early.

also, liston lost early in his career to a Journeyman.

apparently Liston is past his prime against Clay, yet his fight previous to this was the best win of his career? So many double standards.

its literally just cause Rock is small nobody gives him a shot or realizes how good he was.

1.Marciano never fought as a light heavy
2. Holmes lost to Spinks twice . Spinks weighed 199 3/4lbs and 205lbs day before weigh in.so no light heavy and heavier than all Marciano's challengers except fat ****ell.
3.Louis had not fought for over 2 years when he came out of retirement to fight Charles, spot the difference?
4.Patterson weighed 189 and 194 1/2lbs when he fought Liston,so no Lhvy!
5.Spinks weighed 212 1/4lbs when he fought Tyson so no he wasnt a Lhy!
6.Marshall was the 7th ranked LHVY 6 months before he fought Liston.
7.Liston fought Marshall in his 8th fight,he lost a spit dec because he was fighting with a broken jaw,he beat the piss out of Marshall in2 subsequent fights
8.Marciano was still fighting journeymen with losing records when he had over 30 fights under his belt.
Applegate11-14-2
Henri 13-15-1
Mitchell 7--33-3
9.Liston had just 4 minutes and 16 seconds ,[including the counts,] of ring action in the previous 2 years when he faced the consensus number 1 all time heavyweight.
10.Charles weighed 184 1/2lbs against Louis.



'Marciano fought real light heavyweights and poor ones
Bilazarian. 3-5-0 175lbs.
Edwards1-1-0 173 1/2lbs.
Ross ? We don't know his record he was a ringer but he weighed175lbs.
Jefferson 2-2-0 172lbs.
Haft12-6-0 174 3/3lbs

Five men inside the LHVY Limit.

I'll say this for you,you're like Rocky,you're a glutton for punishment! No matter how many punches you take,you keep coming back for more!

[them_apples]

1.Marciano never fought as a light heavy
2. Holmes lost to Spinks twice . Spinks weighed 199 3/4lbs and 205lbs day before weigh in.so no light heavy and heavier than all Marciano's challengers except fat ****ell.
3.Louis had not fought for over 2 years when he came out of retirement to fight Charles, spot the difference?
4.Patterson weighed 189 and 194 1/2lbs when he fought Liston,so no Lhvy!
5.Spinks weighed 212 1/4lbs when he fought Tyson so no he wasnt a Lhy!
6.Marshall was the 7th ranked LHVY 6 months before he fought Liston.
7.Liston fought Marshall in his 8th fight,he lost a spit dec because he was fighting with a broken jaw,he beat the piss out of Marshall in2 subsequent fights
8.Marciano was still fighting journeymen with losing records when he had over 30 fights under his belt.
Applegate11-14-2
Henri 13-15-1
Mitchell 7--33-3
9.Liston had just 4 minutes and 16 seconds ,[including the counts,] of ring action in the previous 2 years when he faced the consensus number 1 all time heavyweight.
10.Charles weighed 184 1/2lbs against Louis.



'Marciano fought real light heavyweights and poor ones
Bilazarian. 3-5-0 175lbs.
Edwards1-1-0 173 1/2lbs.
Ross ? We don't know his record he was a ringer but he weighed175lbs.
Jefferson 2-2-0 172lbs.
Haft12-6-0 174 3/3lbs

Five men inside the LHVY Limit.

I'll say this for you,you're like Rocky,you're a glutton for punishment! No matter how many punches you take,you keep coming back for more!

Rocky was outweighed by at least 20 pounds 6 times:

1. Humphrey Jackson outweighed Rocky by 71 pounds at 254
2. Big Bill Wilson outweighed Rocky by 39 1/4 pounds at 229 1/2
3. Johnny Shkor outweighed Rocky by 30 pounds at 220 1/2
4. Joe Louis outweighed him by 29 1/2 pounds at 213 1/2
5. Bill Hardeman outweighed Rocky by 24 1/2 pounds at 206 1/2
6. Gilley Ferron outweighed Rocky by 20 pounds at 198

​

marciano had next to no ammy record. Hes allowed to be sloppy on early fights. What he did was insane

with no Ammy pedigree a lot of the chumps he faced was all he could find. Nobody knew who he was. Its completely irrelevant

also, why does Liston get a pass for fighting with a broken jaw? What did he do? Break it before the fight?

charles weighing 184 is probably pretty damn close to his fight weight at 175 before he moved up. Even with a same day weigh in its pretty achievable. Just take a LhW and don’t bother making weight.

[Bronson66]

Rocky was outweighed by at least 20 pounds 6 times:

1. Humphrey Jackson outweighed Rocky by 71 pounds at 254
2. Big Bill Wilson outweighed Rocky by 39 1/4 pounds at 229 1/2
3. Johnny Shkor outweighed Rocky by 30 pounds at 220 1/2
4. Joe Louis outweighed him by 29 1/2 pounds at 213 1/2
5. Bill Hardeman outweighed Rocky by 24 1/2 pounds at 206 1/2
6. Gilley Ferron outweighed Rocky by 20 pounds at 198

�������¢����������������

marciano had next to no ammy record. Hes allowed to be sloppy on early fights. What he did was insane

with no Ammy pedigree a lot of the chumps he faced was all he could find. Nobody knew who he was. Its completely irrelevant

also, why does Liston get a pass for fighting with a broken jaw? What did he do? Break it before the fight?

charles weighing 184 is probably pretty damn close to his fight weight at 175 before he moved up. Even with a same day weigh in its pretty achievable. Just take a LhW and don�t bother making weight.

All those you named Louis excepted ,were low level journeymen ,beating them proved nothing!

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT
SIZE COMBINED WITH CLASS. NOT FAT PUDDINGS AND INEPT SAUSAGES WHO COULDNT FIGHT!
Jackson was 4-2-0 he had lost his last fight and retired after the Marciano fight.

Wilson was a journeyman 41-11-3 ,he suffered a badly cut eye in the 1st round and the fight had to be stopped,hardly a conclusive win! Wilson was kod 11times and beaten by 177lbs Danny Nardico.

Shkor 32-18-2 had lost a third of his fights ,he was another journeyman who had been kod in 1 round by Walcott in his last fight.
Louis was 37 years old and only fighting because he was in debt to the IRS he did alright cutting Marciano under both eyes and marking him up with just his jab, then his legs gave out and he was a stationary target for Marciano .Joe was a good 10 pounds above his prime fighting weight and reduced to being a one armed fighte,relying on hs jab.

Hardeman was1-5-0! He had lost his last 3 would have 1 more lose that, and retire.

Ferron was 4-10-0 ,n he would lose his next 3 fights and retire.He was kod in 9 of his13 losses.

These men were cannon fodder, any half decent fighter would be expected to beat them.
I didn't include either Charles or Moore as lightheavies when they fought Marciano , I didn't need to!
I'll just point out that 3 months before he fought Marciano Moore defended his Lhvy crown against Olson and 2 years later was still defending it against Durelle and Pompey!
Your loyalty to your hero is admirable but the logic of your case in defending his record against these 4th raters is lamentably bad .

[Bronson66]

Rocky was outweighed by at least 20 pounds 6 times:

1. Humphrey Jackson outweighed Rocky by 71 pounds at 254
2. Big Bill Wilson outweighed Rocky by 39 1/4 pounds at 229 1/2
3. Johnny Shkor outweighed Rocky by 30 pounds at 220 1/2
4. Joe Louis outweighed him by 29 1/2 pounds at 213 1/2
5. Bill Hardeman outweighed Rocky by 24 1/2 pounds at 206 1/2
6. Gilley Ferron outweighed Rocky by 20 pounds at 198

�������¢����������������

marciano had next to no ammy record. Hes allowed to be sloppy on early fights. What he did was insane

with no Ammy pedigree a lot of the chumps he faced was all he could find. Nobody knew who he was. Its completely irrelevant

also, why does Liston get a pass for fighting with a broken jaw? What did he do? Break it before the fight?

charles weighing 184 is probably pretty damn close to his fight weight at 175 before he moved up. Even with a same day weigh in its pretty achievable. Just take a LhW and don�t bother making weight.

Seven fight Liston does not get a pass because he lost a fight with a broken jaw [splitdec] it's an explanation why he lost to a much more experienced fighter whom you described as a journeyman but was in fact top ten ranked at lhvy a few months earlier.Liston beat the snot out of Marshall in2 subsequent fights.

Marciano' s 7th fight ? Humphrey Jackson 4-2-0 8th fight? Bill Hardeman 1-5-0 . 9th fight? Cardone 0-0-0.10th fight ? Jefferson172lbs 2-2-0.

You are telling me that Al Weill could not have found better opponents than these?

ps Got those sources for Ali being knocked down for 5 minutes and ordering tapes of him sparring with Marciano to be burned.

No? I Didn't think so!

[them_apples]

All those you named Louis excepted ,were low level journeymen ,beating them proved nothing!

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT
SIZE COMBINED WITH CLASS. NOT FAT PUDDINGS AND INEPT SAUSAGES WHO COULDNT FIGHT!
Jackson was 4-2-0 he had lost his last fight and retired after the Marciano fight.

Wilson was a journeyman 41-11-3 ,he suffered a badly cut eye in the 1st round and the fight had to be stopped,hardly a conclusive win! Wilson was kod 11times and beaten by 177lbs Danny Nardico.

Shkor 32-18-2 had lost a third of his fights ,he was another journeyman who had been kod in 1 round by Walcott in his last fight.
Louis was 37 years old and only fighting because he was in debt to the IRS he did alright cutting Marciano under both eyes and marking him up with just his jab, then his legs gave out and he was a stationary target for Marciano .Joe was a good 10 pounds above his prime fighting weight and reduced to being a one armed fighte,relying on hs jab.

Hardeman was1-5-0! He had lost his last 3 would have 1 more lose that, and retire.

Ferron was 4-10-0 ,n he would lose his next 3 fights and retire.He was kod in 9 of his13 losses.

These men were cannon fodder, any half decent fighter would be expected to beat them.
I didn't include either Charles or Moore as lightheavies when they fought Marciano , I didn't need to!
I'll just point out that 3 months before he fought Marciano Moore defended his Lhvy crown against Olson and 2 years later was still defending it against Durelle and Pompey!
Your loyalty to your hero is admirable but the logic of your case in defending his record against these 4th raters is lamentably bad .

But I thought he was too small for these guys. Wasn’t schkorr 6 ft 4?

I don’t understand the double standard. In some cases size means everything.

Marciano HAD NEXT TO NO AMMY CAREER. He fought bums because as far as the rankings were concerned he was a bum as well. Nobody knew who he was. He was fighting anyone he could get his hands on. It was his undefeated record that finally got him a shot against a ranked oponent (rex layne I believe) whome he slept ice cold.

for a guy with no ammy career to do what he did is insane, why can’t you give the man credit.

did it ever occur to you that Charles and Walcott were fighting and beating larger men? Marciano fought them because they were the best. The only guy who was bigger and relatively decent was Nino, but I highly highly doubt he would be the man to do the job and he never did do anything.

Marciano is a short white guy, thats why he doesn’t get any praise. He’s an old italian, a different breed of man that no longer exists!

he’s 49-0 with no Ammy Career, and in a short span destroys Walcott, Charles, Moore and Louis. He leaves about as soon as he shows up. He was old. He had a ruptured disk in his back. He fought with his nose hanging off his face. He only weighed 185 lbs. he didn’t just overpower smaller men, he WAS a smaller man. So either he is bar non the greatest lighthw / cruiser of all time, or he’s a small heavy with tremendous heart.

I have unloaded boatloads of evidence to show you why Marciano was a special fighter. Not just in this thread but others as well. Marciano was no ordinary fighter. Ask Ali.

[Bronson66]

but i thought he was too small for these guys. Wasn������t schkorr 6 ft 4?

I don������t understand the double standard. In some cases size means everything.

Marciano had next to no ammy career. He fought bums because as far as the rankings were concerned he was a bum as well. Nobody knew who he was. He was fighting anyone he could get his hands on. It was his undefeated record that finally got him a shot against a ranked oponent (rex layne i believe) whome he slept ice cold.

For a guy with no ammy career to do what he did is insane, why can������t you give the man credit.

Did it ever occur to you that charles and walcott were fighting and beating larger men? Marciano fought them because they were the best. The only guy who was bigger and relatively decent was nino, but i highly highly doubt he would be the man to do the job and he never did do anything.

marciano is a short white guy, thats why he doesn������t get any praise. He������s an old italian, a different breed of man that no longer exists!

He���s 49-0 with no ammy career, and in a short span destroys walcott, charles, moore and louis. He leaves about as soon as he shows up. He was old. He had a ruptured disk in his back. He fought with his nose hanging off his face. He only weighed 185 lbs. He didn���t just overpower smaller men, he was a smaller man. So either he is bar non the greatest lighthw / cruiser of all time, or he���s a small heavy with tremendous heart.

I have unloaded boatloads of evidence to show you why marciano was a special fighter. Not just in this thread but others as well. Marciano was no ordinary fighter. Ask ali.

SIze without talent means very little.

Size with talent means a ****ing lot!

I'm a short white guy too. Wtf has that to do with evaluating Marciano?

IMO Marciano being white and of Italian descent means he gets more than his share of praise WTF are you talking about?
Valdes beat the man Marciano chose as his next challenger.
Marciano never met a class modern sized heavyweight who was in his prime,just get used to it!

[Willie Pep 229]

In regards to Marciano's rise to contender and his weak resume, leading to his title opportunity:

Al Weill was well connected to Frankie Carbo and the IBC.

They had a large Italian boy who could hit. Carbo liked that and in IMO was more than happy to facilitate Rocky's rise to a title shot.

If Marciano was fed weak opponents until Marciano's 35th fight (Layne) then you can call it, if you want, cherry picking, protection, or great management, they are, in prize fighting synonyms.

I doubt, and even feel certain in that doubt, that Rocky Marciano never once had a say who his opponent would be.

When that opportunity did come Rocky Marciano delivered in spades and then proceeded to take on all the top names avaiable, in the IBC.

In regards to Valdes: I once again argue that he was squeezed out not by "Marciano" but instead because if Valdez won, he and the HW title would then be out of the control of Carbo/IBC. They were never sure Marciano would ever actually win or be able to hold the title, but wanted him in the mix.

Carbo had the power to influence who got title shots but never tried to fix title shots. (Continue reading for why.)

The IBC in 1949 used/bought-off Joe Louis to create the IBC by signing all the top heavyweight contenders' managers to the association. **

According to Samuelson, Beyond the Ring, Louis succeeded in signing eight of the top ten Ring ****zine's 1949 HWs (managers) and then had his stock options bought-out for much needed cash in 1951.

This control then allowed the IBC to force the venues (who were very willing to do so for a piece of the action) to enforce State 'closed-shop' union laws and give preference to fighters managed by IBC associates.

IMO Carbo/IBC quickly learned there was much more money in selling razor blades, (e.g. NBC's Gillete's Cavalcade of Sports) then there was in fixing fights for small change and risking bad TV ratings. Fixed fights were obvious, manipulation of the match-ups weren't).

Rocky, as an Italian (semi-white) HW Champion could help revive the fight game (which had fallen into the dulldrums with the Charles-Walcott trilogy,) and consequently increased Nelson Ratings helping to produce the 'golden age of television boxing.' (1952-1957).

This is probably best exemplied by the pre-title Louis-Marciano fight, that became boxing's first successful closed-circuit televised event in 1951.

This was Carbo's, (who had morped into more of a TV producer than a gangster) new main objective.

In conclusion, IMO, to evaluate a fighter's prowess by examing his resume in a vacuum, absence of the political and money elements involved, is to do a disservice to the fighter's legacy. Marciano could only fight those Weill/Carbo chose for him to fight.

Marciano never had a say in who he fought.

** The IBC was actually a fight managers association the controlled fighters indirectly through the managers. When the IBC was dismantled in 1958 it was under anti-trust laws, as it was denied its 'labor union status) but no charges were ever filed against it. ***

Frankie Carbo (and buddy 'Blinky' Palermo were convicted later, in 1960, for the extortion of a single (illegal Mexican fighter the FBI found homeless on the streets of Los Angeles.

*** If you ever wonder why Congress chose to give Major League Baseball an anti-trust exception as our "National Pasttime.' It may well have been forced on them, for MLB was doing nothing different than the IBC had been doing all along. It seems Congress had multiple definitions of the 'equal protection' clause of the Constitution.

One last thought. Considering that during the 'golden age of television boxing, four different networks, on average, were televising three fight cards a month, (or a total of 12 televised fight cards each month) had the IBC not been there to organized the fragmented game of prize fighting it is unlikely the TV networks could have created that 'golden age.'

While monopolies are never good for all the participants (see MLB before 1973) they always offer efficiency (for a price).

[them_apples]

At the end of the day though he beat ezzard down badly. Ruined him. Ezzard was 191 in the second bout. Rock was his usual weight. Ezzard was not past it and the rematch he faired even worse - testament to the beating he took and Marcianos ability to adapt with every fight.

his other match is vs Rex Layne. Proven contender that he knocked out cold, one of the deadliest shots ever witnessed on boxing. He did all this with very little boxing experience.

ezzard was a great fighter. Who was liston fighting that was as good as ezzard? Bigger doesnt mean better we already went over this. Cleveland with a bullet in him is not better than Charles. He’s an easily hittable brawler that both Liston and Ali made a fool of.

In addition you would think he would lose at some point in 49 fights. In fact he retired because there wasn’t anyone around to beat him.

johnanssen said Marciano would spark liston fast, Ali said he was better than Joe and may not have won. Louis said he was the greatest champion whatever that meant. I believe Liston said something along the same lines. Henry cooper was saying something very similar.

either everyones got a gun to their head or real boxers are seeing something us chumps can’t