When did Muhammad Ali start to slide ?

[Dynamite Kid]

I had Ali winning Norton 2 by one round........the last! But I had Norton 3 a draw.

As for the Young fight I didn't score it on last viewing but didn't feel that Young quite deserved the verdict as awful as Ali was that night. The judges gave it to Ali by too great a margin though.

I think i had him beating Norton by about the same to, he was more active throughout both fights..........bottom line.

I know those scores were ridiculous!

[Sugarj]

Hi GreatA, loved the ABC footage. Ali seemed pretty good there, no slurring, fast and witty.....as good as I've seen him in 1978. The signs were far more noticeable when he was more relaxed, he was pretty pumped there. I've seen other interviews after Spinks 1 where he was much worse. Angelo Dundee said that Ali would just use the excuse that he was tired when it was first noticed by the former.

I wasn't that he slurred at this point, more that his voice got a strange droning tone or a gruffness that made you feel he needed to take a large breath or cough. You never saw that before Frazier 3 and you could occasionally catch a strange, vacant expression around the eyes. I remember clocking it a few times in the 1976/77 movie 'the Greatest'. He obviously wasn't inarticulate at all in 1979/80 because he shot the film 'Freedom Road'.

In fact he was pretty fast talking in the buildup to the Berbick fight in 1981, but you could see he wasn't quite right in the pre fight press conference. In the post fight interview after you could barely understand him.

Even in 1988 when Champions Forever was filmed there were times when he was excited and animated where his speach seemed fine for a guy diagnosed with Parkinsons four years previous, but other times when he was more relaxed he seemed to be difficult to understand.

Parkinsons syndrome is a cruel, inconsistent condition. Just imagine the good Ali could have done if he'd have retired with his health intact! Or just be grateful he didn't, or sods law says he'd have made a comeback to fight Tyson in 86/87 when he was in his mid 40s!!!!!

[boxingbuff]

I'm 55 years old and seen every Ali interview and film and press conference etc etc.

The first I noticed his slurred speech was in 1978 before the 2nd Spinks fight.In fact,the interview man mentioned it to Ali.He said: "Your not as fast or sharp as you used to be Muhammad"

In 1979 I really noticed Ali slur his words and kinda space out on the Johnny Carson Show.I noticed the same thing from that time on until the build up for Larry Holmes.At first Ali was slurring his words and acually drooling on himself without noticing it.The closer the fight got and the more excited he got,his voice became more clear and easy to understand.

After the Holmes fight 90% of the time I saw him,he seemed spaced out and talked very slow and slurred his words badly.Cossell and others said they could not understand a word he said on the telephone.This was all before the Berbick fight!!

Post Berbick.....Well,we all know the sad story and decline.

[GJC]

I think there were a few stages with ali's slide. With regard to his boxing rather than medically it is not as easy as it seems because even at his peak he could throw a dog of a performance in. The 3 year lay off marked the end of his peak, sharp decline after manilla and rapid downhill slide after shavers IMO.

[TheGreatA]

Hi GreatA, loved the ABC footage. Ali seemed pretty good there, no slurring, fast and witty.....as good as I've seen him in 1978. The signs were far more noticeable when he was more relaxed, he was pretty pumped there. I've seen other interviews after Spinks 1 where he was much worse. Angelo Dundee said that Ali would just use the excuse that he was tired when it was first noticed by the former.

I wasn't that he slurred at this point, more that his voice got a strange droning tone or a gruffness that made you feel he needed to take a large breath or cough. You never saw that before Frazier 3 and you could occasionally catch a strange, vacant expression around the eyes. I remember clocking it a few times in the 1976/77 movie 'the Greatest'. He obviously wasn't inarticulate at all in 1979/80 because he shot the film 'Freedom Road'.

In fact he was pretty fast talking in the buildup to the Berbick fight in 1981, but you could see he wasn't quite right in the pre fight press conference. In the post fight interview after you could barely understand him.

Even in 1988 when Champions Forever was filmed there were times when he was excited and animated where his speach seemed fine for a guy diagnosed with Parkinsons four years previous, but other times when he was more relaxed he seemed to be difficult to understand.

Parkinsons syndrome is a cruel, inconsistent condition. Just imagine the good Ali could have done if he'd have retired with his health intact! Or just be grateful he didn't, or sods law says he'd have made a comeback to fight Tyson in 86/87 when he was in his mid 40s!!!!!

Ali certainly not sounding very bad even in the pre-fight build-up for Ali vs Holmes but after the fight you can clearly hear him slurring his words, making him difficult to understand.

[Obama]

The third Frazier fight transitioned him to over the hill, but the question is when did he initially start to slide? Some people believe ever since he came out of exile, but I don't see it that way. Frazier beat a prime Ali in my mind. He used less athletic gifts, but he was a smarter fighter in the ring. Young and dumb Cassius Clay that got his ass nearly KOed by Henry Cooper prolly gets KOed by George Foreman if you ask me. Yet a declining Ali stopped Foreman. But when exactly did the decline start? I figure not too much before the Foreman fight.

[Dynamite Kid]

The third Frazier fight transitioned him to over the hill, but the question is when did he initially start to slide? Some people believe ever since he came out of exile, but I don't see it that way. Frazier beat a prime Ali in my mind. He used less athletic gifts, but he was a smarter fighter in the ring. Young and dumb Cassius Clay that got his ass nearly KOed by Henry Cooper prolly gets KOed by George Foreman if you ask me. Yet a declining Ali stopped Foreman. But when exactly did the decline start? I figure not too much before the Foreman fight.

I believe Frazier beat Ali fair and square to, no excuses.

[joseph5620]

After the third Frazier fight.

I agree with that.

[joseph5620]

[QUOTE=*****;5836036]The third Frazier fight transitioned him to over the hill, but the question is when did he initially start to slide? Some people believe ever since he came out of exile, but I don't see it that way. Frazier beat a prime Ali in my mind. He used less athletic gifts, but he was a smarter fighter in the ring.

Coming back with 2 fights in almost 4 years in not prime no matter how you want look at it. And Ali was not the same fighter that he was in 67. His legs were not the same and the timing was not as sharp.




Young and dumb Cassius Clay that got his ass nearly KOed by Henry Cooper prolly gets KOed by George Foreman if you ask me.


Ali was only 21 years old for that fight. Not prime.That's just like matching prime Ali to the Foreman that fought Gergorio Peralta.

[Dynamite Kid]

Ali took Norton lightly and was not in good condition.

Plus Norton had a style that would have bothered a prime Ali.

Ali was never the same after the Triller in Manilla.He left a piece of himself in the ring that night.Two fights later he got beat by Jimmy Young and later in that year by Norton easily in 1976.Young and Norton both got robbed.

Ali's next fight against Evengalista he looked terrible,and his next fight against Shavers he could not get out of the way of Shavers bombs.It was an even fight that Ali won by a gift.

So it was after the Triller in Manilla that he started to slide....And badly.

It could also been said he slipped after his 4 year lay-off,when he no longer had the quick reflexes to avoid punches as well,and his legs were not what they used to be.

I dont know how anyone could say he beat Jimmy Young i really dont.

If you watch the fight closely, by that i mean score the punches that actually LAND and discard the ones that dont, and score it round by round i dont see how Ali won the fight.

I had it 9 rounds to 6 for Young, even Rahman Ali was yelling to Ali in the 11th that he was losing the fight.