The Daily Bread Mailbag returns with Stephen "Breadman" Edwards tackling topics such as Anthony Joshua's trainer hunt, the trash talk between Gervonta Davis and Ryuan Garcia, the recent big win by Frank Martin, Terence Crawford, and much more.

Anthony Joshua seems to want a Black American trainer. What do you think of fighters and trainers being of the same race? He’s recently been seen training with Virgil Hunter and Derrick James. I think you should throw your name in the mix, you’re hot at the moment. Who do you think would make the best fit with AJ out of James and Hunter? Do you think he can be fixed?

Bread’s Response: First off, I think Robert Garcia did a GREAT job with AJ. He fought better in the rematch with Usyk than he did in their first fight. Garcia is not black…..I think fighters often train with people they relate to. So often times you see fighters and trainers are from the same background. Race, religion, culture, region etc. They usually share something….But it’s not exclusive to success. 

Cus Dmato was not black. I think he did a great job with Mike Tyson. The Petronelli brothers did a great job with Marvin Hagler…. 

I would never throw my name in any mix to train any fighter. If a fighter wants to train with me, he knows how to find me. And I’m saying that in the most humble context. It’s not out of arrogance. But I wouldn’t want to urge someone to look at me in a certain light. I would want them to look at me in that light without my direct influence. This game is intricate. And if a trainer solicits his services to a fighter, then that can be held against him I terms of his pay and importance on the team. And I’m not knocking any trainer that does it. It’s just not for me, that’s all. 

I also wouldn’t ever go for a job that Virgil Hunter is in the mix to get. He’s my friend and my mentor. He’s also my father’s age. I respect him too much to compete for a job with him. If a job ever came down to him and I, I would remove myself out of the mix and tell the fighter to pick him. I don’t care if he would do it for me. I would still do it for him. I just got too much respect for him to compete with him for a training job.

As for who’s the best fit for AJ. That’s up to AJ, I’ve never seen him in the gym. The thing about a fighter who is searching….He looks at the fighter’s the trainer he’s interested in produces. Hunter has produced Andre Ward. Most don’t admit it but Ward is your favorite fighter’s, favorite fighter. In this era and the past era, Ward was the most honored among the fighters I have been personally been around. 

Ten years ago, Hunter’s gym was packed with fighters looking for whatever he gave Andre Ward. Fighters pick up on the habits, good and bad of the best fighter in the gym they train at. Andre Ward is probably the best SHADOWBOXER in boxing history, that alone is intoxicating to fighters who study him. He literally looks as if he brainwashes himself to imagine if a man is in front of him. 

Derrick has the same thing going on at the moment. He has 3 BIG time fighters in Errol Spence, Jermell Charlo and now emerging Frank Martin. That’s a serious line up and it’s basically all you need as an elite trainer. More than 5 guys spreads you too thin in my opinion. The great thing about both Derrick and Virgil is that the things that they have done in boxing can be TAUGHT. Obviously Ward, Jermell, Errol and Frank have natural ability. But skills and technique are TAUGHT. So fighters are attracted to that, more than a free flowing natural talent type because often times those are things that you are born with. 

So at this point, it would come down to what style and environment AJ wants and is attracted to. What turns his psyche on the most. Who’s instructions he feels would be best for him to execute. A trainer and fighter pairing is more than Xs and Os. The chemistry and being someone’s type is a BIG deal. The BIGGEST deal or deal breaker in my opinion. 

We’re going into 2023 and it seems like everyone expects an undisputed heavyweight championship showdown… again. This happens every year. Before it was Tyson Fury and Oleksander Usyk, we had all the talk about Fury and Anthony Joshua. Remember Joshua-Deontay Wilder? Fury-Wilder in 2015/2016? I could go back to matchups from the 1980s that didn’t happen. Many of those fights also seemed to have a better shot of happening than Fury-Usyk. The IBF just ordered Usyk to fight Filip Hgrovic and the WBA ordered him to fight Daniel Dubois. Joe Joyce holds the interim WBO championship, so you know he’s getting called up soon. Before anyone can say “undisputed fights override mandatories”, Fury says he needs surgery. That’s a big deal. That means there’s a risk that Usyk is going to have to fight at least one of those mandatory challengers. And what if Fury needs a tuneup fight after surgery? Then Usyk may have to face another one while Fury risks being mandated to fight the winner of Wilder-Andy Ruiz. In my opinion, the conditions don’t seem right for this fight in 2023 and I doubt it happens. I would love to hear your opinion on it. Happy holidays!

Bread’s Response: This is a great question but the answer is so simple. YES! If Fury and Usyk instruct their teams to get it done or else, the teams will get it done. Usyk is the one guy in boxing, who has made every fight he needed to make and didn’t mind going on the road to make them. So I’m not going to believe it, if someone says he negotiated himself out of a fight. It’s not his M-O.

Great call on Martin vs Rivera. You picked Martin on a smidge without being overly assertive or absolute. I rode it with you and it was actually easy money. Where does Martin go from here and why do you think the fight was so easy?

Bread’s Response: My guts just told me that Martin seemed more resolute for the moment. He seemed more settled in his style. I also believed that if Errol Spence was backing him knowing how high up in the PBC status line Errol is, that the fight favored Martin. If Errol’s first big prime time spot with one of his guys is vs Rivera, there was something they “saw” in Rivera. It doesn’t have to work out like that but those were just my instincts. I happened to call it right this time. They made a 50/50 fight, 80/20 in the ring. Errol has good boxing eyes because that was a nice roll of the dice. 

I want to give Martin and Derrick James props too. That’s a big win for Derrick in a 50/50 prospect fight. Also Martin is more athletic than I initially thought or saw. He was faster, quicker, stronger and more fundamentally sound than Rivera. He was just better by a noticeable margin. Martin is going to be hard work for the lightweight field. He gives them all, a tough night’s work. I was also impressed with how Martin talked. He said some things that resonated with me as a trainer. He talked about how much work him and Errol did on their own. Fighters who stick with their programs and have the work ethic to work on their own, simply excel. The little things matter in a game of INCHES.

Long time reader, first time.  Not a question just a comment.  First,  thank you for everything you do. Happy holidays, hope everyone is good on your side. Second, I do not miss a a daily bread mailbag, something I look forward every Saturday or an interview like the one on the last stand. Last, would it be possible for you do a boxing chat, where fans ask you question live and you answer ? Like the one Dan Rafael just to do for ESPN. Also fangraphs writer do it for baseball. Hope you read this. I don't follow celebrities, I follow good, genuine people, like yourself and Wallo. 

Bread’s Response: Man Wallo is the man. The way he turned his life around and is doing his thing with his podcast and public speaking is just awesome and inspiring. Wallo and Gillie are doing a great job. 

I don’t really have the platform to do a boxing chat. I’m not opposed to it but I would have to have someone who can monitor the interaction and screen the questions. Fans are so disrespectful with the trolling, I couldn’t screen the bad apples. It’s not like TWITTER where you can just block the idiots or mute the idiots in training. So if there was someway screening could be done I would be down. Other than that, I couldn’t do it.         

Who do you think Errol Spence will fight next? He said he would fight in April, May or June but he didn’t say who the opponent would be? I’m guessing Keith Thurman. When he was asked about how many fighters he wanted to promote, he said 3 or 4? He said fighters where like little kids, something you have been saying in your interviews. Why do you think fighters are so hard to deal with?

Bread’s Response: I don’t know who Errol will fight. I’ve heard him say in the past that he doesn’t like Keith Thurman and he didn’t want to give him the pay day. So maybe that has changed, maybe it hasn’t. There are few other guys in the PBC realm, Cody Crawley, Rashidi Ellis and Boots Ennis. Not sure who he will pick but he’s at a point where he can choose whoever he wants although Ennis is his mandatory.

I think Errol is going to be an excellent promoter. He’s smart and he’s a star. I can tell he’s been privileged with seeing things on the inside and that’s a big deal. Not all fighters are like little children but if you meet 10 fighters, 5 will act like little children and in order for them to be successful they will need someone to do extra things than they signed up or are paid for. Spence knows this. And I can tell that Frank Martin is a kid of high character. So dealing with a kid like that will spoil you as a promoter. So Spence most likely won’t have patience for anything less than Martin. 

Some of the qualities that fighters have that make them good fighters also make them hard to deal with. Stubbornness, forgetfulness, lack of empathy, lack of compassion, entitlement issues and often times fighters are users. I hate to say it but hang around a boxing gym for a few years and you will see it. So you have to pick through dozens of fighters to find hidden gyms with the character and structure to make it. Errol had it, with work ethic, amateur pedigree and great active parents. Errol will most likely either consciously or subconsciously look for himself in fighters. And he seems to have found part of himself in Martin. But the reason he only wants 3 or 4 is because Errol Spence’s don’t grow on trees.  

Ssup Bread, Wish you and your family a Merry Christmas and a very Happy New Year in advance. Short and simple this time. Last week, you didn't list Ezzard Charles in the list of people who will give Sugar Ray Robinson a tough night. Do you think SRR beats him at 160? What is your take on Ezzard Charles vs SRR at 160.

Regards, Saurabh

Bread’s Response: I didn’t think about Charles because he made his bones at 175lbs and heavyweight. But he was a fine middleweight. He beat Charley Burley twice at middleweight if I’m not mistaken. I think he would have been a handful for Robinson at 160 because 160 was Charles’s start out weight and Robinson’s was 135lbs. They are the same exact age and came up in the same exact era. Charles loss and was stopped a few times coming up as a prospect where as Robinson was regarded as the better P4P fighter throughout their careers. But in actual fight, Charles would have been tough on Robinson because of the natural size difference. It’s about 20lbs-25lbs and both are ATG. Obviously they never fought in the same division at the same time. But if they did compete at middleweight during the same time, I say it’s basically an even fight. Charles may have been a little inexperienced at middleweight but again he had the natural size. And the end of Robinson’s peak was at middleweight…Great matchup. Charles is underrated historically, his run from 1943-1951 is as good and as hard as anyone’s in history including Robinson’s. Many regard Willie Pep as the 2nd best fighter of the era behind Robinson. But Charles has a very strong case based on a better resume.

Dear Mr. Edwards,

I saw and strongly agree with your comments regarding main events starting far too late.  I have a 3 part question for you on this topic.1) Can you chart when or why this trend started?  Was there a watershed period or fighter?2) What would be your middle ground to accommodate the east and west coast?3) Do you know if promoters or networks consider market (Nielsen/IRI) data before fights to pick the best start time?

Thank you for the time and consideration.

Bread’s Response: I see you must follow me on Twitter…. I can’t tell you when it began but it doesn’t matter to me when it began it needs to stop. Boxing does all sorts of counterproductive things that have no rhyme or reason. The Super Bowl starts at approximately 6:30est time. It’s the biggest most viewed event in the US. The NBA finals starts approximately 9:00pm est. They always have team from the Western Conference in it. The World Series starts at approximately 8-9pm. The Final Four starts at 6pm est. The College Football National Championship starts at 9pm est. All of these events have a bigger live gate and more viewership than boxing. So unless a boxing event is directly competing with a more popular sport’s super event which it usually does not, no one can give me a reasonable reason why our biggest stars fight after midnight EST when the New York media is the largest in the world. 

I’m not just saying this because I live on the East Coast. I would say it if I lived in California. I can’t and won’t understand why they carry over so late. No one complains about the starting time for other events that are bigger and start much earlier. Because those events starting times regardless of what teams or schools are participating are convenient for all coast. NFL football games on the West Coast start 10am or 1pm for the most part on Sundays. The Main Event on championship and PPV fight cards SHOULD start no later than 9pm-10pm EST. It’s really simple. Boxing consistently turns it’s audience off, instead of turning it on. 

Our most exciting fighters we fight them once a year at the most. The sanctioning bodies don’t mandate champions to fight each other. Drug cheats get more privilege than clean fighters. Attempting to be the best is frowned upon and bad officials consistently get assignments so they can continue their incompetent or corrupt ways. Now for many years the people in NY which has the largest population in the country. The people in Philadelphia which is the 6th largest city in America. And people in the Nation’s capital all have to watch big fights after midnight. It’s unbelievable and most of all frustrating. 

Hey Breadman! I hope you're enjoying the holiday season! So I was talking to my dad the other day about athletes past and present who were great while not being particularly athletic. I mentioned Larry Bird being one of them, but he refuted that notion. He suggested that Bird was "sneaky athletic" in that he could pull off athletic moves you wouldn't someone with his physique to be able to pull off. Do you agree? Are there boxers you can think of that you would describe as "sneaky athletic"? I'm curious what boxers you would describe in that way?

Greg K. 

Bread’s Response: I think you can be a great athlete but not be particularly athletic. I watched Bird in his entire prime and contrary to popular opinion he was better than Magic Johnson prime for prime. But Magic was 3 years younger and his team had more sustained success but at their peaks, Bird was considered better. He won 3 MVPS before Magic won 1. He won Rookie of the Year in their rookie season.

I think Bird had a quick mind and he had skill and smoothness. Sort of like how Luca Doncic does now. Most athletes in their realm also have a unique quality that many don’t understand. They don’t allow themselves to be SPED UP. When an athlete allows himself to sped up into a mistake, it actually slows their processing ability down. It’s why a fighter like Amir Khan who is lightening fast, can be ran into kill shots, while a fighter like Chocolatito has much better defense, because he processes better in his mind and he doesn’t get SPED UP. 

I think Bird has some sneaky athleticism but it comes from his superior mind and skill set which allowed him to prosper at what appeared to be slow but yet effective. He wasn’t so much slow as he was controlled and smooth. In boxing there are many like Bird where in hypothetical match ups they always “look” like the slower fighter but yet they usually win for the most part. Watch Archie Moore. He looked like he could be twisted up and outboxed. But look close. Rocky Marciano looks the same. Alexis Arguello looks like more athletic lightweight can outbox him but none ever did. Julio Cesar Chavez appears that way. History has plenty of fighters like this because skill was a bigger part of boxing 40+ years ago. Recently GGG ascended in what appeared to be non athletic form. But somehow he became one of the best fighters on the planet. 

Four fighters stand out the most to me in my lifetime as far as fighters who don’t seem athletic but really are. Even more so than Larry Bird is athletic in basketball. Andre Ward is super athletic but he fights an efficient fight where he doesn’t do extra stuff as far as his movements. When I hear Ward complimented I always hear praise but I never hear them say how athletic he was. Ward is a tremendous athlete but it gets rarely acknowledged. Because he's neat and efficient.

Marvin Hagler was bouncy, he had quick hands, he was smooth. We view him as a destroyer. But watch his fight vs Alan Mintor. Watch him vs Caveman Lee. Watch him vs Bennie Brisco. Hagler was very athletic.

Joe Joyce, this guy can run like a deer. He does back summersaults. But he appears lumbering. Joyce has a crude athleticism. If he was born in America he could’ve been a stand out defensive lineman. Joyce has loads of athleticism it just isn’t as aesthetically pleasing.

Bernard Hopkins has refined athleticism. Watch him vs Tito Trinidad. Watch him vs Joe Lipsey. Bernard is viewed as this skillful crafty overachiever. But his athleticism, hand speed, mind quickness all get overlooked. Hopkins was actually a better athlete than Antonio Tarver when they fought and Tarver is athletic. But watch that fight good and you will see a significant edge in athleticism for Hopkins. The problem I think WE all have, is athleticism is mostly judged on raw speed and there is much more to it than raw speed. Speed is just the most obvious thing. I’ve always felt that Pernell Whitaker was more athletic than Meldrick Taylor but Meldrick Taylor was just visually faster. But reaction time, coordination, depth judgment, smooth movements all favored Whitaker. I hope I was able to explain. I love topics like this. 

OK Bread hope you are well,

Who is better - Tim Bradley or Shawn PorterI think Porter is a better version and had the better career.

Thanks

Conrad, Sheffield

Bread’s Response: Two hard working, well conditioned throw back fighters who got everything out of their careers. They squeezed every bit of themselves to be the best they could be. In terms of careers, I would take Tim Bradley’s. Bradley was the BEST Junior Welterweight in the world when he unified vs the undefeated Devon Alexander. He also at some point after ascended on the P4P list. Because of Bradley’s run at 140lbs and his victory over the HOF Juan Manuel Marquez that everyone seems to forget, I would say Bradley had the better career.

But if you’re asking me who’s the better fighter it’s very tough because of Porter’s performances vs Spence and Crawford. I don’t know if Bradley could’ve beaten Spence or Crawford. He certainly would have been the underdog if he faced both. Porter took them to the brink. I came away super impressed with Shawn’s performances in both fights. Shawn and Tim are both very similar as fighters. Both are shorter, athletic hybrid boxer fighters. Both are physically strong but aren’t big ko punchers. Both need high energy attacks, so I believe it’s why they retired at basically the same age. 

Shawn has 4 losses. If he would have won just 2 of those fights vs Brook, Thurman, Spence or Crawford, Shawn would have legit shot at the HOF. All of those guys were hovering or on the P4P list and all were undefeated, near or in their prime. Shawn Porter was a tough OUT. As of now, to be fair to both great warriors. I’m going to say Tim had the better career thus why he’s a HOF. And they are basically EVEN in terms of who is better because both only loss to excellent fighters at the top of their games. 

What’s up Bread, hope all is well. Two parts. First, what were your thoughts on how Crawford looked physically against Avanesyan? I’m a huge Bud fan and thought he performed well, but I also felt like he looked a bit slower in the hand speed department and that he also looked less “springy” moving around the ring. It was subtle, but still noticeable. Have you noticed anything along those lines or do you think it was a function of knowing he could get the guy in front of him out of there using less effort than he has in other fights? Second - I know you’re a Teo guy. Seems to me he battles himself mentally in the ring and is dealing with serious self doubt. Are there examples of other major fighters that overcame this trait? Wladimir Klitschko stands out to me but not many others.

Take care, JP

Bread’s Response: Bud is Bud to me. He doesn’t have to be on a Kobe Bryant 81 point game to get the job done. Often times we want the best athletes to be on their best performance every time they perform. That’s not realistic. Kobe Bryant only got 81 once. His baseline was between 25-30 and that was good enough to be a top 10 player of all time.

Bud may not have been the Bud who fought Felix Diaz which in my opinion was probably his best performance but that doesn’t mean he’s slipped or got slower. No athlete in history gives their APEX performance every time out. Or else it wouldn’t be their apex performance. I do think Bud slowed the fight down but many things could have been the factor. 

One, the HD feeds on the camera. We haven’t seen BLK Prime do a PPV yet. And I’m telling you fights look different in person than they do on TV feeds. I know I’m getting into small details but that’s a real thing. Also Bud has smooth speed. He doesn’t have raw speed. He’s one of those guys that is as fast as he needs to be. He doesn’t try to be fast in the literal sense. He’s direct and smooth with his attack. When a fighter is zoned in he may not “look” as fast as he really is. I study these things to a great extent. 

I want you to watch Julian Williams vs Freddy Hernandez on youtube. Williams looked a little slower that night in compared to him vs say Luciano Cuello. The reason for that, was Freddy Hernandez was slower and if you move too fast vs a slower fighter you can overcompensate. We talked about that and worked on that in that camp, of not trying to be “Too Fast”. So he was able to time Hernandez easier and clip him inside of 3 rounds. No one said Williams had lost speed because he was only 23 at the time. Crawford is 35 so with each performance if he’s not on fire, the natural tendency is to say he slipped. He may have been just slowing things down, to go as fast as he needed to be vs a dangerous but slower opponent. Crawford is a genius level puncher, his instincts may have told him what I just told you. I wouldn’t read too much into it off of that one fight.

I have compassion for Teofimo Lopez. I’m old enough to be his father and I see some things in him that I saw in myself at a critical time of my life. Teo needs support not criticism at this point.

 Yes I’ve seen plenty of fighters go through confidence issues for several different reasons. If you can identify the reason you can overcome the issue. We saw Chocolatito go through it in his rematch with SSR. He sort of just marched into a ko. I think Choc was just burned out a little bit and his trainer had just died. And obviously SSR is a great fighter.

We saw Wladimir Klitshcko go through it for several years. I think Wlad’s was different. I think he lacked confidence because he couldn’t reconcile why his stamina was poor and why he kept getting hurt by punches. Once he did, he became a great fighter. What gets a fighter out of confidence issues is SUCCESS. 

Donald Curry was one of my favorite fighters of the 80s. I think he was on his way to get out of his rut vs Mike McCallum. Had he defeated McCallum the Honeyghan loss would have just been a bad day. But losing to McCallum after fighting so well, forever took away the Donald Curry that 80s boxing aficionados raved about.

I feel most fighters go through confidence issues at some point if they lose or struggle. The key is to not let the world see it. The world saw Wlad treading water. The world saw Teofimo ask does he still have it. But this isn’t uncommon.

What do you think of Gervonta Davis’s accusation that Ryan Garcia didn’t take his tune up fight because he’s juicing. I thought Tank was being candid and I’ve never heard a fighter say anything like that so casually. Fighters complain about activity and now Garcia is saying no to a fight that even his promoter Oscar De La Hoya is advising him to take.

Bread’s Response: I didn’t hear the comments initially and I went and researched your question to hear the context. Man Tank went in! All I can say is that’s Tank’s opinion and I don’t get into that stuff unless there is strong circumstantial evidence or a positive test. I will say this though. Fighters who have made the type of money that Tank has, can afford to INVEST in CLEAN boxing. They can force their opponents to test for longer time periods than usual. They already know they’re going to fight. Tank can force Ryan to start testing now if he wants to and especially if he's suspicious of him. I’m not sure when they started testing or even if it has started yet, but those were some strong comments. Let’s see what happens.

I also read that Oscar de La Hoya advised Garcia to take the tune up fight. Oscar fought 5 times in 1997. He was also very active in 1994 and 95. Oscar was at his sharpest when he was an active fighter. I think Oscar was correct in advising Ryan to take the tune up. Making weight, being sharp and going through a camp gets you better. Unless Ryan is nursing a secret injury then again I agree with Oscar.

I have two things to say about that specifically. If Ryan loses to Tank then not taking his tune up vs a short southpaw is going to get thrown up in his face. Also when a fighter chooses to do something like this it tells me something. It tells me they don’t LOVE their sport. Being active in your craft is a sign of love. When you do it sporadically and you can’t GET UP for certain things, then often times it’s a sign that the love is dwindling. I think Ryan is a talented fighter. I think his offensive firepower and physical gifts are among the most impressive in boxing. But I never liked that he CHOSE not to fight for a world title. Fighters of his talent and status, want to be world champions. They just do. Unless Ryan is an absolute unicorn, at the level he’s operating at, everyone at his level wants to hear “And the New”. It’s not like he’s a 15-12 club fighter who knows his role in boxing and knows he can’t ever be a world champion. Ryan has the talent and pedigree and to not have even fought for a world title at this point, is just perplexing to me. I can’t wait until they fight, it should be a great fight and great event.

Michel Rivera reportedly passed out before his fight with Frank Martin. You stated that you thought it was a 50/50 fight but you felt Rivera struggled too much to make 135lbs. Now that reports have came out he passed out, you seem to have inside info. How common is it for fighters to fight under harsh weight cuts?

Bread’s Response: I didn’t have inside info. I was at a weigh in with Rivera in October and I saw how drained his eyes looked. I saw how sunken in his body was. I didn’t like what I saw. In a game of inches, who makes weight the most healthy and who rehydrates best, is just as important as talent and skill. I also know that Errol Spence hired a nutritionist for his fight with Ugas, and Martin is his under study. So Martin hired a chef and nutritionist for his big moment. That’s what aspiring fighters do. When you guys ask me who I’m picking for a fight and I say let me see how things go. You often accuse me of giving a politically correct answer. But in fact what I am doing is looking for the little things like this. Martin was the better prepared fighter.

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